Question about the Jute Deathbringers Dead Lantern

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HughB
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Question about the Jute Deathbringers Dead Lantern

Postby HughB » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:08 pm

So the wording for the deathbringer's dead lantern is as follows:

Light of the Darkness: while the Drēaguth Deathbringer bears the Deadlantern, the current SKILL and MIGHT of any Undead unit within the Drēaguth Deathbringer's command range is increased by +10.
This increase is not cumulative with other Artefacts of the type “Lantern”, and does not increase the M+W of any weapon of the type “Lantern”.
Dark Light: while the Drēaguth Deathbringer bears the Deadlantern, he is Difficultly Seen.

Emphasis mine. Whereas the wording of the grave lantern/barrow lantern for the licwaca/wiglaca is as follows:

Light of the Barrows: while the Wiglāca bears the Barrow Lantern, the current SKILL and MIGHT of any friendly Undead Jute warrior within the Wiglāca's command range is increased by +10. This increase is
not cumulative with other other Artefact of the type “Lantern”, and does not increase the M+W of any weapon of the type “Lantern”.
Dark Light: while the Wiglāca bears the Barrow Lantern, he is Difficultly Seen.

So the deathbringer appears to boost the might of a whole unit rather than just the warriors within it's command range as it specifies units not warriors and it says within rather than wholly within.

Does this mean that I can stick the deathbringer on the end of a unit of whitboga and boost their might by ten so that they're loosing M+W 50 arrows at their foes?

It seems legit but I can equally see that this could well be far too good to be true/not ruthlessly errata'd.
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Re: Question about the Jute Deathbringers Dead Lantern

Postby Icchan » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:31 am

Having been on the receiving end of 30 something shots with Skill 50 Might 50 volley shooting Wihtbogas, I can definitely say they feel a bit cheesy.
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Re: Question about the Jute Deathbringers Dead Lantern

Postby Rob Lane » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:25 am

HughB wrote:It seems legit but I can equally see that this could well be far too good to be true/not ruthlessly errata'd.


Yes, it's correct, and intended.

As I always say - I will never change anything game-wise that's just a theory. Playtest it!

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Re: Question about the Jute Deathbringers Dead Lantern

Postby Icchan » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:11 am

I've yet to come up with an effective counter strategy against them (bar using Atalantes). So far I've tried:
- Shooting them with lightning spells with Troll Gothi. Sometimes works, but because they're difficultly seen thanks to Licwaca's lamp, it's mostly down to luck to even hit them. Not very cost effective, Troll Gothi with full spell armament is expensive.
- Diving on them with flying units. Variable success, depending on the flying unit. Grithir usually did worse than Gunnhrafns because it's gigantic and easier to hit. Usually it gets shot down before it even reaches them. Coupled with Darklight invocation, the Wihtbogas potentially get to shoot twice and then once more with Hold and Shoot when they get dived upon!
- Charging them with monsters. They're usually accompanied by Gasts nearby which Gazed them away, the rest died to Hold and Shoot reaction.
- Charging them with mass infantry. Pretty much shot to pieces on the way there.

Things yet to try:
- Outshooting them. Most likely will not work. They have higher skill, higher might and difficultly seen.
- Outflanking them with flankers. Might work, but I don't have any cavalry flanker models yet.
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Re: Question about the Jute Deathbringers Dead Lantern

Postby Jonathon Chester » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:29 pm

Icchan wrote:I've yet to come up with an effective counter strategy against them (bar using Atalantes). So far I've tried:
- Shooting them with lightning spells with Troll Gothi. Sometimes works, but because they're difficultly seen thanks to Licwaca's lamp, it's mostly down to luck to even hit them. Not very cost effective, Troll Gothi with full spell armament is expensive.
- Diving on them with flying units. Variable success, depending on the flying unit. Grithir usually did worse than Gunnhrafns because it's gigantic and easier to hit. Usually it gets shot down before it even reaches them. Coupled with Darklight invocation, the Wihtbogas potentially get to shoot twice and then once more with Hold and Shoot when they get dived upon!
- Charging them with monsters. They're usually accompanied by Gasts nearby which Gazed them away, the rest died to Hold and Shoot reaction.
- Charging them with mass infantry. Pretty much shot to pieces on the way there.

Things yet to try:
- Outshooting them. Most likely will not work. They have higher skill, higher might and difficultly seen.
- Outflanking them with flankers. Might work, but I don't have any cavalry flanker models yet.


Please correct me if I'm wrong but why are the unit difficultly seen? From what has been mentioned above only the character is difficultly seen...
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Re: Question about the Jute Deathbringers Dead Lantern

Postby Brightblade » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:52 pm

Jonathon Chester wrote:
Icchan wrote:I've yet to come up with an effective counter strategy against them (bar using Atalantes). So far I've tried:
- Shooting them with lightning spells with Troll Gothi. Sometimes works, but because they're difficultly seen thanks to Licwaca's lamp, it's mostly down to luck to even hit them. Not very cost effective, Troll Gothi with full spell armament is expensive.
- Diving on them with flying units. Variable success, depending on the flying unit. Grithir usually did worse than Gunnhrafns because it's gigantic and easier to hit. Usually it gets shot down before it even reaches them. Coupled with Darklight invocation, the Wihtbogas potentially get to shoot twice and then once more with Hold and Shoot when they get dived upon!
- Charging them with monsters. They're usually accompanied by Gasts nearby which Gazed them away, the rest died to Hold and Shoot reaction.
- Charging them with mass infantry. Pretty much shot to pieces on the way there.

Things yet to try:
- Outshooting them. Most likely will not work. They have higher skill, higher might and difficultly seen.
- Outflanking them with flankers. Might work, but I don't have any cavalry flanker models yet.


Please correct me if I'm wrong but why are the unit difficultly seen? From what has been mentioned above only the character is difficultly seen...


On the Licwaca...

Light of the Tombs: while the Līcwāca bears the Grave Lantern, the current SKILL and MIGHT of any friendly Undead Jute warrior within the Līcwāca's command range is increased by +10. This increase is
not cumulative with other Artefacts of the type “Lantern”, and does not increase the M+W of any weapon of the type “Lantern”. Additionally, any friendly warriors of the Kin Wiht, Drēaguth, Gāst or Dwimor
within the Līcwāca's command range are also difficultly seen.
Dark Light: while the Līcwāca bears the Grave Lantern, he is Unseen (6”).
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Re: Question about the Jute Deathbringers Dead Lantern

Postby Jonathon Chester » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:57 pm

Ah, there was me misreading that bit!

A few ways to deal with that unit off hand are spray weapons, Tramples and focus spells.

The first two are easy strikes so negate that difficult bit and focus spells dont need to see the target thus don't get the penalty.

Anther usful tactic unit depending is something with the unseeing trait such as the Vore. THey care not if you are difficultly seen.
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Re: Question about the Jute Deathbringers Dead Lantern

Postby Brightblade » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:04 pm

Raises an interesting thought on Focus Spells however...

How would you know where to Focus the Invoke if nobody can see the unit?
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Re: Question about the Jute Deathbringers Dead Lantern

Postby Jonathon Chester » Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:03 pm

Brightblade wrote:Raises an interesting thought on Focus Spells however...

How would you know where to Focus the Invoke if nobody can see the unit?


Some are area effect spells so don't need a target as such, Hell pit is an example, you're just causing something on the ground to happen.
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Re: Question about the Jute Deathbringers Dead Lantern

Postby Rob Lane » Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:25 pm

Brightblade wrote:Raises an interesting thought on Focus Spells however...

How would you know where to Focus the Invoke if nobody can see the unit?


Focus invocations work with the sorcerer's mind - he can sense where objects are on the battlefield.

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Re: Question about the Jute Deathbringers Dead Lantern

Postby Brightblade » Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:46 pm

Rob Lane wrote:
Brightblade wrote:Raises an interesting thought on Focus Spells however...

How would you know where to Focus the Invoke if nobody can see the unit?


Focus invocations work with the sorcerer's mind - he can sense where objects are on the battlefield.

Cheers
Rob


So couldn't he simply tell somebody where they are, thus making them seen rather than unseen...

A volley Shooting unit for example, they may not be able to see them but given the Sorcerors advice and direction they could shoot in the general direction and distance....
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Re: Question about the Jute Deathbringers Dead Lantern

Postby Jonathon Chester » Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:13 pm

Brightblade wrote:
Rob Lane wrote:
Brightblade wrote:Raises an interesting thought on Focus Spells however...

How would you know where to Focus the Invoke if nobody can see the unit?


Focus invocations work with the sorcerer's mind - he can sense where objects are on the battlefield.

Cheers
Rob


So couldn't he simply tell somebody where they are, thus making them seen rather than unseen...

A volley Shooting unit for example, they may not be able to see them but given the Sorcerors advice and direction they could shoot in the general direction and distance....


Doesn't necessarily mean hes certain they're there its like spidey senses gives them a rough feeling but the guys firing the bows still have no clue.
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Re: Question about the Jute Deathbringers Dead Lantern

Postby Brightblade » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:25 pm

Jonathon Chester wrote:Doesn't necessarily mean hes certain they're there its like spidey senses gives them a rough feeling but the guys firing the bows still have no clue.


Love the Spidey Sense reference... Another Big Marvel and DC fan here too...
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Re: Question about the Jute Deathbringers Dead Lantern

Postby Icchan » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:51 pm

Being difficultly seen doesn't matter in melee combat, it's only a modifier for Shoot or Sighted Invokes.

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