A few questions about Jutes - clarifying to prevent me cheating

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HughB
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A few questions about Jutes - clarifying to prevent me cheating

Postby HughB » Mon May 27, 2019 5:25 pm

Hi, I've got a couple of questions about some of the jute abilities and spells if I may. Intention is to seek clarification to ensure that I am not cheating/know what I'm talking about.

First one. Unseen 6". There are several models within the Jute list that are unseen 6" due to lanterns crowns etc. Am I right in thinking that models that are further than 6" away from them therefore cannot directly engage them (charge/trample/slam)?

If so how does this interact with frenzied models? Can frenzied models that start further than 6" away from this model select the model as a charge target?

Can they be indirectly engaged by a model that starts more than 6" away from them?

Can they be indirectly engaged by circlers via dive and slash/dive and grab or dive and land attacks (as they start significantly more than 6" away from them when they begin their activation)?

Can they be declared as a swoop target by flyers that start more than 6" away from them?

Second question:

Question around timing and the dark light spell. If a licwaaca has the dark light spell and he's attached to a unit of wihtboga, am I right in thinking that he couldn't actually use the spell to reactivate the wihtboga unit? My reasoning for this thinking is that if he's joined to the unit and therefore activates at the same time as them, because he's got a higher skill than the wihtboga, he would cast his spells before they shoot their arrows and so he would effectvely be attempting to reactivate them before they've activated (or more accurately before they've loosed their arrows because they could have moved if they were able to do so before he cast the spell). So for dark light to work it needs to either be cast on a unit that has a higher skill than the licwaaca or on a unit that he is not joined to. Am I correct in this?

Third question:

Questions about the veil dwellers spell. The continuous effect states that models that move within the area effect take D10 soul damage. Is there anyway that this damage can trigger them acquiring another continuous effect soul token? The future effect says that each warrior within the template takes one damage and one soul effect token at the end of each activation within a battle hour. Does this mean that if the template was placed over a model at the start of a battle hour that every time another unit activated within that battle hour that the model takes another wound of damage and the unit its part of gains another soul token? So if the spell is cast at the start of a turn it can cause significantly more damage than at the end of a turn?

Fourth question:

The resurrection spells invigorate and vivify allow you to roll a number of D10 and add that amount of wounds to an undead unit and take it off the temper of the casting mage. Are you obliged (if the target unit has taken enough damage) to use all of the total score rolled to resurrect models or can you choose to resurrect less wounds and thereby reduce the temper of your mage by less than the total you rolled?

Thats me for now.

Thanks

Hugh
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Re: A few questions about Jutes - clarifying to prevent me cheating

Postby Rob Lane » Mon May 27, 2019 10:50 pm

HughB wrote:Hi, I've got a couple of questions about some of the jute abilities and spells if I may. Intention is to seek clarification to ensure that I am not cheating/know what I'm talking about.

First one. Unseen 6". There are several models within the Jute list that are unseen 6" due to lanterns crowns etc. Am I right in thinking that models that are further than 6" away from them therefore cannot directly engage them (charge/trample/slam)?


Correct.

HughB wrote:If so how does this interact with frenzied models? Can frenzied models that start further than 6" away from this model select the model as a charge target?


No.

HughB wrote:Can they be indirectly engaged by a model that starts more than 6" away from them?


Yes.

HughB wrote:Can they be indirectly engaged by circlers via dive and slash/dive and grab or dive and land attacks (as they start significantly more than 6" away from them when they begin their activation)?


Yes.

HughB wrote:Can they be declared as a swoop target by flyers that start more than 6" away from them?


If that's indirect, yes.

This is all in the rulebook...

HughB wrote:Second question:

Question around timing and the dark light spell. If a licwaaca has the dark light spell and he's attached to a unit of wihtboga, am I right in thinking that he couldn't actually use the spell to reactivate the wihtboga unit? My reasoning for this thinking is that if he's joined to the unit and therefore activates at the same time as them, because he's got a higher skill than the wihtboga, he would cast his spells before they shoot their arrows and so he would effectvely be attempting to reactivate them before they've activated (or more accurately before they've loosed their arrows because they could have moved if they were able to do so before he cast the spell). So for dark light to work it needs to either be cast on a unit that has a higher skill than the licwaaca or on a unit that he is not joined to. Am I correct in this?


Yes.

HughB wrote:Third question:

Questions about the veil dwellers spell. The continuous effect states that models that move within the area effect take D10 soul damage. Is there anyway that this damage can trigger them acquiring another continuous effect soul token? The future effect says that each warrior within the template takes one damage and one soul effect token at the end of each activation within a battle hour. Does this mean that if the template was placed over a model at the start of a battle hour that every time another unit activated within that battle hour that the model takes another wound of damage and the unit its part of gains another soul token?


Yes... that's what it says?

HughB wrote:So if the spell is cast at the start of a turn it can cause significantly more damage than at the end of a turn?


Yes.

HughB wrote:Fourth question:

The resurrection spells invigorate and vivify allow you to roll a number of D10 and add that amount of wounds to an undead unit and take it off the temper of the casting mage. Are you obliged (if the target unit has taken enough damage) to use all of the total score rolled to resurrect models or can you choose to resurrect less wounds and thereby reduce the temper of your mage by less than the total you rolled?


You use as many wounds as you wish (so therefore as much TEMPER as you wish).

Cheers
Rob
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Re: A few questions about Jutes - clarifying to prevent me cheating

Postby HughB » Mon May 27, 2019 11:44 pm

Nice one. You're right the direct/indirect stuff was mostly in the rule book after rereading the start of the engagement section. Sorry for bothering you on that but thanks for confirming.

Thanks for clarifying the spells. They're a bit wordy and I wanted to make sure I was getting things right - I've got a long and colourful record of interpreting rules incorrectly and to my advantage. Not a good habit. Unexpected bonus on the resurrection spells. Now to take a hard look at my spell list and sort out some ack ack for my wizards. Or sellotape a pot plant/bonsai tree to the top of their head and call it a forest for one. That's legal right? o.O
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Re: A few questions about Jutes - clarifying to prevent me cheating

Postby Icchan » Tue May 28, 2019 5:18 am

If you indirect engage an Unseen unit, wouldn't that stop the activation immediately for the engager and make them confused?
From the errata on this forum:
Page 98:
3.7.2.1.5
UNSEEN
Some effects (particularly from invocations) cause warriors to become unseen. Line of sight cannot be drawn to unseen warriors under any circumstances as they cannot be seen at all. They also do not block sight lines or reduce sight line length in any way. Unseen warriors cannot be engaged in combat, and nor can they be the Target of a Shoot action or the Mark of an Invoke action except for focus invocations. In short, Unseen warriors cannot be interacted with in any way by any enemy warrior. Should a warrior come into contact with an Unseen warrior for any reason, it immediately becomes confused. Enemy warriors that come into contact with an Unseen warrior are beset themselves, but they are engaged as normal by the Unseen warrior.

I've bolded the relevant bit.
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Re: A few questions about Jutes - clarifying to prevent me cheating

Postby Rob Lane » Tue May 28, 2019 10:23 am

Icchan wrote:If you indirect engage an Unseen unit, wouldn't that stop the activation immediately for the engager and make them confused?
From the errata on this forum:
Page 98:
3.7.2.1.5
UNSEEN
Some effects (particularly from invocations) cause warriors to become unseen. Line of sight cannot be drawn to unseen warriors under any circumstances as they cannot be seen at all. They also do not block sight lines or reduce sight line length in any way. Unseen warriors cannot be engaged in combat, and nor can they be the Target of a Shoot action or the Mark of an Invoke action except for focus invocations. In short, Unseen warriors cannot be interacted with in any way by any enemy warrior. Should a warrior come into contact with an Unseen warrior for any reason, it immediately becomes confused. Enemy warriors that come into contact with an Unseen warrior are beset themselves, but they are engaged as normal by the Unseen warrior.

I've bolded the relevant bit.


They're Unseen 6", which means that once you get within 6" you can see them.

Totally Unseen with no range, you are absolutely correct.

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Rob
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Re: A few questions about Jutes - clarifying to prevent me cheating

Postby Brightblade » Tue May 28, 2019 11:55 am

Rob Lane wrote:Your answer to Hugh doesn't match the answer given to Icchan...

I think Hugh is asking if a model is more than 6 inches from the 6" Unseen unit can they attack them either Directly (Charge) or indirectly (Walk / Run into combat)... The answer is NO isn't is as they cannot be seen unless you blindly walk towards them and then suddenly see them... But surely that would allow a very loose interpretation of the rules as a player could argue the point that I was just walking that way anyway...


That's the rule, like it or not - if you're unseen with a range you can be indirectly engaged... you have to get rid of Licwaca's somehow. The unseen bit is more to protect against enemy shooters than anything else.

Cheers
Rob
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Re: A few questions about Jutes - clarifying to prevent me cheating

Postby HughB » Tue May 28, 2019 1:12 pm

Message temporarily deleted awaiting a chance to read the rulebook more thoroughly.
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Re: A few questions about Jutes - clarifying to prevent me cheating

Postby Brightblade » Tue May 28, 2019 1:58 pm

Brightblade wrote:
Rob Lane wrote:Your answer to Hugh doesn't match the answer given to Icchan...

I think Hugh is asking if a model is more than 6 inches from the 6" Unseen unit can they attack them either Directly (Charge) or indirectly (Walk / Run into combat)... The answer is NO isn't is as they cannot be seen unless you blindly walk towards them and then suddenly see them... But surely that would allow a very loose interpretation of the rules as a player could argue the point that I was just walking that way anyway...


That's the rule, like it or not - if you're unseen with a range you can be indirectly engaged... you have to get rid of Licwaca's somehow. The unseen bit is more to protect against enemy shooters than anything else.

Cheers
Rob


I like it... not sure Dayle will or other Jute players will ...

In their mind they probably think that outside of 6" they are invisible, being able to Indirectly engage then outside of 6" means that they are not invisible..

A guthwulf for example has a pace of 9 so they could simply walk 9" into combat even though they cannot see them outside of 6"..
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Re: A few questions about Jutes - clarifying to prevent me cheating

Postby Rob Lane » Tue May 28, 2019 2:11 pm

Brightblade wrote:I like it... not sure Dayle will or other Jute players will ...

In their mind they probably think that outside of 6" they are invisible, being able to Indirectly engage then outside of 6" means that they are not invisible..

A guthwulf for example has a pace of 9 so they could simply walk 9" into combat even though they cannot see them outside of 6"..


There are other senses than sight... including memory.

Think of it this way: you know there's a chocolate hobnob left in your cupboard somewhere. You can't see it, but you know it's there, so you have a bloody good look... and lo and behold! There it is!!

Not for long though.

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Re: A few questions about Jutes - clarifying to prevent me cheating

Postby Jonathon Chester » Tue May 28, 2019 2:28 pm

Brightblade wrote:
Brightblade wrote:
Rob Lane wrote:Your answer to Hugh doesn't match the answer given to Icchan...

I think Hugh is asking if a model is more than 6 inches from the 6" Unseen unit can they attack them either Directly (Charge) or indirectly (Walk / Run into combat)... The answer is NO isn't is as they cannot be seen unless you blindly walk towards them and then suddenly see them... But surely that would allow a very loose interpretation of the rules as a player could argue the point that I was just walking that way anyway...


That's the rule, like it or not - if you're unseen with a range you can be indirectly engaged... you have to get rid of Licwaca's somehow. The unseen bit is more to protect against enemy shooters than anything else.

Cheers
Rob


I like it... not sure Dayle will or other Jute players will ...

In their mind they probably think that outside of 6" they are invisible, being able to Indirectly engage then outside of 6" means that they are not invisible..

A guthwulf for example has a pace of 9 so they could simply walk 9" into combat even though they cannot see them outside of 6"..


Bet the Guthwulf has a damn good sense of smell as well as many of the creatures in darklands.
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Re: A few questions about Jutes - clarifying to prevent me cheating

Postby Rob Lane » Tue May 28, 2019 2:30 pm

Jonathon Chester wrote:Bet the Guthwulf has a damn good sense of smell as well as many of the creatures in darklands.


Exactly what I mean... I'm sure Scott's sense of smell kicks in when there's lard about! :lol:

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Re: A few questions about Jutes - clarifying to prevent me cheating

Postby Jonathon Chester » Tue May 28, 2019 2:40 pm

Rob Lane wrote:
Jonathon Chester wrote:Bet the Guthwulf has a damn good sense of smell as well as many of the creatures in darklands.


Exactly what I mean... I'm sure Scott's sense of smell kicks in when there's lard about! :lol:

Cheers
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No comment...
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Re: A few questions about Jutes - clarifying to prevent me cheating

Postby Brightblade » Tue May 28, 2019 3:46 pm

Rob Lane wrote:
Brightblade wrote:I like it... not sure Dayle will or other Jute players will ...

In their mind they probably think that outside of 6" they are invisible, being able to Indirectly engage then outside of 6" means that they are not invisible..

A guthwulf for example has a pace of 9 so they could simply walk 9" into combat even though they cannot see them outside of 6"..


There are other senses than sight... including memory.

Think of it this way: you know there's a chocolate hobnob left in your cupboard somewhere. You can't see it, but you know it's there, so you have a bloody good look... and lo and behold! There it is!!

Not for long though.

Cheers
Rob


Let me be perfectly clear on this point.... There are ZERO, NONE, NADDA, unclaimed Chocolate Hob Nobs anywhere in my Cupboards.... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: A few questions about Jutes - clarifying to prevent me cheating

Postby Brightblade » Tue May 28, 2019 3:51 pm

So I am assuming that Blind works in the same way, that if my Unit is Blinded by an enemy that is 6" away, my unit can still indirectly engage that Blinding unit it just has Difficult Strike and Parry Modifers...

I played this way on Monday when Andy blinded my Trees...
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Re: A few questions about Jutes - clarifying to prevent me cheating

Postby HughB » Tue May 28, 2019 10:38 pm

Fifth question. The swarm spell.

I think that perhaps its not intended to be used as such but am I right in thinking that there is nothing in writing that prevents the swarm spell being used as part of a hold and invoke reaction should a licwaaca be attacked by a dive and slashing circler?

Next a couple of questions about panic reaction. The panic reaction page states that exulted and frenzied units never have to perform a panic reaction. However it later states that any exult tokens provide a negative modifier to the panic test and dismay tokens provide a positive modifier. I read the exceptions part of the panic test as meaning if there are any exult tokens in place at all then there is no need to take a test and so the modifier is academic. What am I getting wrong there?

So if the swarm spell goes off then the target unit must take a panic check. If it passes this test, the unit is shaken. If it doesn't then it is broken and flees. Shaken units can only engage a unit via an attack move. Does this therefore mean that a circling unit that attempts to engage a licwaaca that casts swarm on them as part of a hold and invoke reaction is no longer eligible to indirectly engage and has to abort the attempt to dive and slash or is the timing of the engage action/invoke reaction such that the engaging unit has got past the point of no return? If the panic test is failed, how/where to circling units flee to when they are broken? How do they attempt to rally and can they be encouraged to 'circle off' and remove themselves from the board?
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Re: A few questions about Jutes - clarifying to prevent me cheating

Postby Jonathon Chester » Wed May 29, 2019 7:47 am

HughB wrote:Fifth question. The swarm spell.

I think that perhaps its not intended to be used as such but am I right in thinking that there is nothing in writing that prevents the swarm spell being used as part of a hold and invoke reaction should a licwaaca be attacked by a dive and slashing circler?

Next a couple of questions about panic reaction. The panic reaction page states that exulted and frenzied units never have to perform a panic reaction. However it later states that any exult tokens provide a negative modifier to the panic test and dismay tokens provide a positive modifier. I read the exceptions part of the panic test as meaning if there are any exult tokens in place at all then there is no need to take a test and so the modifier is academic. What am I getting wrong there?

So if the swarm spell goes off then the target unit must take a panic check. If it passes this test, the unit is shaken. If it doesn't then it is broken and flees. Shaken units can only engage a unit via an attack move. Does this therefore mean that a circling unit that attempts to engage a licwaaca that casts swarm on them as part of a hold and invoke reaction is no longer eligible to indirectly engage and has to abort the attempt to dive and slash or is the timing of the engage action/invoke reaction such that the engaging unit has got past the point of no return? If the panic test is failed, how/where to circling units flee to when they are broken? How do they attempt to rally and can they be encouraged to 'circle off' and remove themselves from the board?


I now have an image in my head of a massive dragon dive bombing then shouting abort! and slamming the breaks on because of a few bugs :lol:
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Re: A few questions about Jutes - clarifying to prevent me cheating

Postby Rob Lane » Wed May 29, 2019 8:45 am

Brightblade wrote:So I am assuming that Blind works in the same way, that if my Unit is Blinded by an enemy that is 6" away, my unit can still indirectly engage that Blinding unit it just has Difficult Strike and Parry Modifers...

I played this way on Monday when Andy blinded my Trees...


As long as there's no rule preventing blind warriors from engaging, correct...

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Re: A few questions about Jutes - clarifying to prevent me cheating

Postby Rob Lane » Wed May 29, 2019 9:37 am

HughB wrote:Fifth question. The swarm spell.

I think that perhaps its not intended to be used as such but am I right in thinking that there is nothing in writing that prevents the swarm spell being used as part of a hold and invoke reaction should a licwaaca be attacked by a dive and slashing circler?


There is a rule - the Hold and Invoke must be against the unit that's Engaging you, or your own unit - so that should be fine, if you cast it on a dive and slashing circler.

HughB wrote:Next a couple of questions about panic reaction. The panic reaction page states that exulted and frenzied units never have to perform a panic reaction. However it later states that any exult tokens provide a negative modifier to the panic test and dismay tokens provide a positive modifier. I read the exceptions part of the panic test as meaning if there are any exult tokens in place at all then there is no need to take a test and so the modifier is academic. What am I getting wrong there?


You're forgetting the exult tokens that are banners, shieldwall, etc., so you're reading the panic exceptions wrong... you're assuming too much by Exulted. An Exulted unit is one with an Exulted token - not any kind of exult token.

HughB wrote:So if the swarm spell goes off then the target unit must take a panic check. If it passes this test, the unit is shaken. If it doesn't then it is broken and flees. Shaken units can only engage a unit via an attack move. Does this therefore mean that a circling unit that attempts to engage a licwaaca that casts swarm on them as part of a hold and invoke reaction is no longer eligible to indirectly engage and has to abort the attempt to dive and slash or is the timing of the engage action/invoke reaction such that the engaging unit has got past the point of no return?


Good question. The Engagement action is already taking place, however, shaken only stops you declaring an Engagement action (except attack move, which is always possible); and there's no rules for "aborting" except for when an Engaged unit buggers off. As far as I'm concerned they still Engage - it's just that they're shaken.

HughB wrote:If the panic test is failed, how/where to circling units flee to when they are broken? How do they attempt to rally and can they be encouraged to 'circle off' and remove themselves from the board?


Circling units bugger off entirely - they're fecked - as always, this is in the rulebook... look at 7.52.4.1.2, Circling Fleers...

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Rob
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Re: A few questions about Jutes - clarifying to prevent me cheating

Postby HughB » Wed May 29, 2019 11:04 am

Jonathon Chester wrote:
HughB wrote:Fifth question. The swarm spell.

I think that perhaps its not intended to be used as such but am I right in thinking that there is nothing in writing that prevents the swarm spell being used as part of a hold and invoke reaction should a licwaaca be attacked by a dive and slashing circler?

Next a couple of questions about panic reaction. The panic reaction page states that exulted and frenzied units never have to perform a panic reaction. However it later states that any exult tokens provide a negative modifier to the panic test and dismay tokens provide a positive modifier. I read the exceptions part of the panic test as meaning if there are any exult tokens in place at all then there is no need to take a test and so the modifier is academic. What am I getting wrong there?

So if the swarm spell goes off then the target unit must take a panic check. If it passes this test, the unit is shaken. If it doesn't then it is broken and flees. Shaken units can only engage a unit via an attack move. Does this therefore mean that a circling unit that attempts to engage a licwaaca that casts swarm on them as part of a hold and invoke reaction is no longer eligible to indirectly engage and has to abort the attempt to dive and slash or is the timing of the engage action/invoke reaction such that the engaging unit has got past the point of no return? If the panic test is failed, how/where to circling units flee to when they are broken? How do they attempt to rally and can they be encouraged to 'circle off' and remove themselves from the board?


I now have an image in my head of a massive dragon dive bombing then shouting abort! and slamming the breaks on because of a few bugs :lol:


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Re: A few questions about Jutes - clarifying to prevent me cheating

Postby HughB » Wed May 29, 2019 11:17 am

Rob Lane wrote:
You're forgetting the exult tokens that are banners, shieldwall, etc., so you're reading the panic exceptions wrong... you're assuming too much by Exulted. An Exulted unit is one with an Exulted token - not any kind of exult token.


Ah right. That makes sense, thank you.

HughB wrote:So if the swarm spell goes off then the target unit must take a panic check. If it passes this test, the unit is shaken. If it doesn't then it is broken and flees. Shaken units can only engage a unit via an attack move. Does this therefore mean that a circling unit that attempts to engage a licwaaca that casts swarm on them as part of a hold and invoke reaction is no longer eligible to indirectly engage and has to abort the attempt to dive and slash or is the timing of the engage action/invoke reaction such that the engaging unit has got past the point of no return?


Rob Lane wrote:Good question. The Engagement action is already taking place, however, shaken only stops you declaring an Engagement action (except attack move, which is always possible); and there's no rules for "aborting" except for when an Engaged unit buggers off. As far as I'm concerned they still Engage - it's just that they're shaken.


Yeah I was kind of thinking the same myself. Don't get me wrong - I was hoping that the 'dragon see bugs and run' effect would come into play but its rather grossly unfair to just shut down all engagements quite so easily. Am I right in thinking that there are no negatives/positives to hit for attackers/attacked when a unit is shaken and in combat (I looked really hard and couldn't find anything).

Rob Lane wrote:
Circling units bugger off entirely - they're fecked - as always, this is in the rulebook... look at 7.52.4.1.2, Circling Fleers...

Cheers
Rob


I'll take that with both hands though. Fortitude on a hrafnmann is not so high that they will feel ecstatic about taking a panic check and with confused and 'being a dive slasher' getting them up to +2 to hit thats about as protected as I'm likely to get (ie still dead) short of giving each licwaaca a tree and telling him to be friends with it. Apologies for missing the entry. I did try to find it in the book first. Honest.
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Re: A few questions about Jutes - clarifying to prevent me cheating

Postby Rob Lane » Thu May 30, 2019 10:31 am

HughB wrote:Yeah I was kind of thinking the same myself. Don't get me wrong - I was hoping that the 'dragon see bugs and run' effect would come into play but its rather grossly unfair to just shut down all engagements quite so easily. Am I right in thinking that there are no negatives/positives to hit for attackers/attacked when a unit is shaken and in combat (I looked really hard and couldn't find anything).


Nothing - shaken just means they're under pressure.

HughB wrote:I'll take that with both hands though. Fortitude on a hrafnmann is not so high that they will feel ecstatic about taking a panic check and with confused and 'being a dive slasher' getting them up to +2 to hit thats about as protected as I'm likely to get (ie still dead) short of giving each licwaaca a tree and telling him to be friends with it. Apologies for missing the entry. I did try to find it in the book first. Honest.


I believe you Hugh!

Cheers
Rob

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