Brace action and attacking without charging

[deadlydeceiver]

Hey,

just a short question concerning the Brace Action:
Assuming my bracing or "holding and bracing" unit is charged and attacked, thus making my parries easy ones.
If now my activation follows may I choose to "unbrace" and attack, effectively attacking without difficult strikes? (of course I then wouldn't be braced in the following hour)
If yes, may I also choose to do so when I "attack back"?

In addition, I've seen in one video, that Carrowek couldn't see the Mallox and so just "walked up" and hit him. Does that mean that I can basically walk around (f.ex. on Move order) and when getting in weapon range of an enemy can strike at him? (of course without charge bonuses)

With thanks

Sven

[Rob Lane]

just a short question concerning the Brace Action:
Assuming my bracing or "holding and bracing" unit is charged and attacked, thus making my parries easy ones.
If now my activation follows may I choose to "unbrace" and attack, effectively attacking without difficult strikes? (of course I then wouldn't be braced in the following hour)

The Brace action ends at the beginning of the Braced unit's next activation, so yes, you'd be able to attack back.

If yes, may I also choose to do so when I "attack back"?

Yes - if you're talking about activating as a result of being attacked; you activate, so yes.

In addition, I've seen in one video, that Carrowek couldn't see the Mallox and so just "walked up" and hit him. Does that mean that I can basically walk around (f.ex. on Move order) and when getting in weapon range of an enemy can strike at him? (of course without charge bonuses)

Yes - it's covered under "ENGAGING ENEMY UNITS IN COMBAT" on p35 of the download. You can Walk and Run into combat of course; you just don't get those Charge bonuses.

Hope that helps.

Cheers

[deadlydeceiver]

Thanks a lot, Rob! Now off to my first game!

Best Sven

[deadlydeceiver]

Hey Rob,

sorry to bother you again.
I'm still a bit puzzled on the topic of "moving to engage".
The QS rules state that the champion of the unit must see the enemy before they begin their move.
In the video Carrowek/Battle-Drune couldn't see the Mallox, but Tim states he does an "Attack Move and wanders up to him".
Could you clarify this a bit in more depth?

Using an example from my recent game: If a unit doesn't see the enemy because there's a small wood inbetween, could he just walk around and engage (beset) the enemy?

Apart from that I am correctly assuming that "Move to Engage" can be used under Hold and Move orders?
So is there anything keeping a unit from moving (marching!) right up to an enemy and engage (beset) him, thus taking away the option to be charged?

There's also another question I'd like to address, concering the charge of multiple units. I got that a unit, consisting of more than one model can engage multiple units using one charge (move to engage) move. But what about single models?
In our case it was Druc charging a Gorgonarch with a Fidron very close by. Could he choose to charge a bit of to one side and engage both?

Sorry for the wall of text, but I'm still a bit lost on that topic.

Best Sven

[Rob Lane]

Hey Rob, sorry to bother you again.

Don't be silly - this is what I'm here for!

I'm still a bit puzzled on the topic of "moving to engage".
The QS rules state that the champion of the unit must see the enemy before they begin their move.
In the video Carrowek/Battle-Drune couldn't see the Mallox, but Tim states he does an "Attack Move and wanders up to him".
Could you clarify this a bit in more depth?

Correct, the champion of the unit must see the enemy before they begin their Move to Engage, BUT this obviously falls under Line of Sight rules - the Mallox is on a much larger base and thus Carrowek should be able to see him if his sight is blocked by smaller-based miniatures. I can't remember where the exact passage in the video is (feel free to give me the exact time where this occurs), so I can't really check what's happened, but if Carrowek's facing the wrong way and still Moves to Engage then Tim's got it wrong, basically - and so have I!

Using an example from my recent game: If a unit doesn't see the enemy because there's a small wood inbetween, could he just walk around and engage (beset) the enemy?

No, because the champion cannot see the enemy. To put it in "real" terms, the unit would be surprised by the enemy behind the wood and would stop outside their (or the enemy's) Attack Range. They haven't made a conscious decision to engage, because they can't see what they're engaging.

In a lot of ways making the Champion have to see the enemy they're wishing to engage is a game mechanic to balance engaging and wanting not to be engaged (think, lone sorcerer running away), but it does also make sense in real terms. If you can't see something on a battlefield, why would you move up to it?

Apart from that I am correctly assuming that "Move to Engage" can be used under Hold and Move orders?

Well, not HOLD orders, because you can't Move under those voluntarily; but yes, you can "Move to Engage" under MOVE orders and ATTACK orders.

So is there anything keeping a unit from moving (marching!) right up to an enemy and engage (beset) him, thus taking away the option to be charged?

No, as long as the unit's champion can see the enemy and all other rules are followed. Obviously if you March, you can't Attack...!

There's also another question I'd like to address, concering the charge of multiple units. I got that a unit, consisting of more than one model can engage multiple units using one charge (move to engage) move. But what about single models? In our case it was Druc charging a Gorgonarch with a Fidron very close by. Could he choose to charge a bit of to one side and engage both?

Yes. As long as you place his Charge (i.e., turn to face) so that he charges into one enemy unit which then besets or engages another enemy unit, absolutely. Your enemy player should have placed the units further apart ;o)

Sorry for the wall of text, but I'm still a bit lost on that topic.

It's actually pretty simple. I think that a lot of people (not just yourself) are reading the Darklands rules and thinking there must be something else to them other than what you read. There isn't.

Everything I've answered here is not a clarification - is already there, in the rules, in black and white. I'm not trying to say you're dense or anything, or I'm ace - far from it! - I just think you're so used to other rules being unclear or worded strangely that... well, it can't be that simple, can it?

I'm not afraid of rules being wrong - if they're wrong, I'll change them! Simple as that really. I'm quite willing for the rules to be pulled apart, in order to make a better game.

Cheers

[deadlydeceiver]

Thanks a lot! Your way of taking on the questions one at a time and including my quotes really makes it easy to follow and very clear.

You're absolutely right in saying thatit's all absolutely clear in the rules and basically if you follow the "Can, Cannot-Rule" from the beginning ("Because it doesn't say you can't, doesn't mean you can") you should be spared questions like mine ^^
The scene that basically triggerd it all is in this video at 33:25min: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3170Sh0jCxE

So am I right to summarize as follows? You can't move into attack range (mine or the enemies) if you're not able to see the enemy beforehand.

Final questions:
"Move to Engage" states that I may walk, fly or run into combat. As per "Can, cannot" I would not be able to get into engage/beset distance to an enemy using the march action. Correct?
That may also not happen accidentially, f.ex. by charging a unit with another one hidden behind a wood close by?

Well, not HOLD orders, because you can't Move under those voluntarily

... if there's no noble commander in the unit. Right?

Your enemy player should have placed the units further apart ;o)

It was me being charged

Thanks a gain for your efforts.It goes a long way making for an awesome gaming experience.

Best Sven

[Rob Lane]

Thanks a lot! Your way of taking on the questions one at a time and including my quotes really makes it easy to follow and very clear.

You're welcome!

You're absolutely right in saying thatit's all absolutely clear in the rules and basically if you follow the "Can, Cannot-Rule" from the beginning ("Because it doesn't say you can't, doesn't mean you can") you should be spared questions like mine ^^

Absolutely ; o)

The scene that basically triggered it all is in this video at 33:25min: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3170Sh0jCxE

Well, Timmy says Carrowek can't see, but I reckon it can (although my eyes may deceive me). Either way, Tim's got it wrong there.

So am I right to summarize as follows? You can't move into attack range (mine or the enemies) if you're not able to see the enemy beforehand.

Final questions:
"Move to Engage" states that I may walk, fly or run into combat. As per "Can, cannot" I would not be able to get into engage/beset distance to an enemy using the march action. Correct?

Yea, that's correct - was getting ahead of myself there.

That may also not happen accidentially, f.ex. by charging a unit with another one hidden behind a wood close by?

That's slightly different - if a unit Moves to Engage or Charges another unit and, in the process of physically moving, becomes engaged with another enemy unit that it couldn't originally see, then fine.

Well, not HOLD orders, because you can't Move under those voluntarily

... if there's no noble commander in the unit. Right?

Right, but again, that's slightly different - the Commander leads the unit and can thus force it to dance to his tune.

Your enemy player should have placed the units further apart ;o)

It was me being charged

Hehe!

Thanks a gain for your efforts.It goes a long way making for an awesome gaming experience.

[/quote]

You're very welcome. It's the very least I can do as game designer!

Cheers

[deadlydeceiver]

You, good sir, are a wellspring of dark knowledge. Thanks a lot!

More games coming up tomorrow... oh today ^^

Best Sven

[deadlydeceiver]

Alright, I feel a bit stupid for the recent 4 threads in this forum are from me

I need a quick affirmative answer on "hold and brace". It stated that after "holding and bracing" I may only attack in the following activation. Following you answer from above that would mean that after "holding and bracing" I would automatically "unbrace" and then attack back with my regular skill (no difficult strikes).
Following this it would mean that a unit that is bracing normally can choose to remain braced for as long as it wishes, while a "holding and bracing" unit can only brace for the initial attack and choose to brace again only in it's second and following activation.
Correct?

Best Sven

[Rob Lane]

Alright, I feel a bit stupid for the recent 4 threads in this forum are from me

Ah don't be daft, keep asking! It's useful for me too!

I need a quick affirmative answer on "hold and brace". It stated that after "holding and bracing" I may only attack in the following activation. Following you answer from above that would mean that after "holding and bracing" I would automatically "unbrace" and then attack back with my regular skill (no difficult strikes).

Looking back at my answer, it appears that you've found a little loophole - I didn't see "Holding and Bracing", I just thought you meant a Brace action on its own, and thus you've assumed something for this question; my fault I guess!

If you choose to perform a Hold and Brace Charge reaction, which is voluntary, you perform a Brace action and so (technically) you've activated already. This means you're still Braced if you perform a Defender's Attack action.

To make this clearer, text is now changed to (changes in bold):

"The Hold and Brace Charge reaction is voluntary and mirrors the Hold Charge reaction, except that the Holding unit may also activate and perform a Brace action at the same time."

The Hold and Shoot Charge reaction has also changed in similar vein.

Following this it would mean that a unit that is bracing normally can choose to remain braced for as long as it wishes, while a "holding and bracing" unit can only brace for the initial attack and choose to brace again only in it's second and following activation.
Correct?

Best Sven

See the above answer.

[deadlydeceiver]

Looking back at my answer, it appears that you've found a little loophole

Woo, another not-so stupid question! Seems like I've got a run

If you choose to perform a Hold and Brace Charge reaction, which is voluntary, you perform a Brace action and so (technically) you've activated already. This means you're still Braced if you perform a Defender's Attack action.

Ah, perfectly clear now! So "Hold and Brace" --> Easy parries and difficult strikes

To make this clearer, text is now changed to (changes in bold):

"The Hold and Brace Charge reaction is voluntary and mirrors the Hold Charge reaction, except that the Holding unit may also activate and perform a Brace action at the same time."

Hm, I understand what you did there, but if I may be so bold, I think this new wording might lead to further questions, (not from me, I'm totally clear now ^^) as you're basically trying to create an activation that lasts from holding and bracing over the opponents attack action to the counter attack.

So people could ask themselves: But if I have activated to "Hold and Brace", is my activation suspended? / ...can I choose not to attack back right away? / ...is the "next activation" in the next hour or now? ... and so on.

I think a simple addition to "further actions" might be a more straight forward approach.
F.ex.: "...during their next activation and are still considered Braced" (I'm sure you could word that a little better )

I hope that made at last a little sense ^^

Best Sven

[deadlydeceiver]

Sorry double post

[Rob Lane]

Looking back at my answer, it appears that you've found a little loophole

Woo, another not-so stupid question! Seems like I've got a run

If you choose to perform a Hold and Brace Charge reaction, which is voluntary, you perform a Brace action and so (technically) you've activated already. This means you're still Braced if you perform a Defender's Attack action.

Ah, perfectly clear now! So "Hold and Brace" --> Easy parries and difficult strikes

To make this clearer, text is now changed to (changes in bold):

"The Hold and Brace Charge reaction is voluntary and mirrors the Hold Charge reaction, except that the Holding unit may also activate and perform a Brace action at the same time."

Hm, I understand what you did there, but if I may be so bold, I think this new wording might lead to further questions, (not from me, I'm totally clear now ^^) as you're basically trying to create an activation that lasts from holding and bracing over the opponents attack action to the counter attack.

So people could ask themselves: But if I have activated to "Hold and Brace", is my activation suspended? / ...can I choose not to attack back right away? / ...is the "next activation" in the next hour or now? ... and so on.

I think a simple addition to "further actions" might be a more straight forward approach.
F.ex.: "...during their next activation and are still considered Braced" (I'm sure you could word that a little better )

Just a thought and I hope that made at last a little sense ^^

Best Sven

I'll be perfectly honest here in saying that "it will do for now"; the full rules will work differently in terms of when actions can be performed. Effectively, the Action Matrix is redundant - it's too laboured.

I don't really want to give too much away, but it will be similar to Space Hulk in that each unit will have "action points" (which we call Stamina), and depending on the action, Stamina points will be used. Almost everything will have the same Stamina to use per hour, at least in initial playtesting.

Read into that what you will...

Cheers

[deadlydeceiver]

I don't really want to give too much away, but it will be similar to Space Hulk in that each unit will have "action points" (which we call Stamina), and depending on the action, Stamina points will be used. Almost everything will have the same Stamina to use per hour, at least in initial playtesting.

That sounds super cool!