Counter Engage

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James Harding
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Counter Engage

Postby James Harding » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:06 pm

Rob,
When you counter engage (7.11) you move the charger up to half their engage move or swift engage move, then move the charged unit.
Does this allow BOTH units to have bulk charge? In theory the charging unit never moves over their pace which is needed to be a swift engager (as only move half), but do they count as having been a swift engager as they would have been one?

Also are attacks 'simultaneous'? Some people think they are, but 7.11.3.2.1 'Who goes First' says that the models with the higher skill perform their engagement attacks first, and the attack sequence summary (VI.XX.III p.197) clearly says you remove models at the end of the sequence before moving on to any further remaining combat weapon attacks.
This seems to suggest that the higher skill ferals can kill models in a counter engagement, and correlates to combat attacks happening in skill order in a normal combat.
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Rob Lane
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Re: Counter Engage

Postby Rob Lane » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:31 am

James Harding wrote:Rob,
When you counter engage (7.11) you move the charger up to half their engage move or swift engage move, then move the charged unit.
Does this allow BOTH units to have bulk charge?


No, because that can never happen - to perform a bulk charge, one unit has to have a greater strength than the other. It can never happen that both have greater strength!

James Harding wrote:In theory the charging unit never moves over their pace which is needed to be a swift engager (as only move half), but do they count as having been a swift engager as they would have been one?


In theory - but one unit may be slowed, and so forth.

James Harding wrote:Also are attacks 'simultaneous'? Some people think they are, but 7.11.3.2.1 'Who goes First' says that the models with the higher skill perform their engagement attacks first, and the attack sequence summary (VI.XX.III p.197) clearly says you remove models at the end of the sequence before moving on to any further remaining combat weapon attacks.


Well, I'm a bit confused here... do you prefer to use "some people" or the rule book to determine the correct rules? :lol: :lol:

Mate, it's in the rule book, in the section you just mentioned.

James Harding wrote:This seems to suggest that the higher skill ferals can kill models in a counter engagement, and correlates to combat attacks happening in skill order in a normal combat.


Correct.

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Rob
James Harding
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Re: Counter Engage

Postby James Harding » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:54 am

Cheers Rob,

So for the bulk charge for counter engage, is it based on the distance separating at the point of engage move?
Eg.
Guthwulf charges Tarvax unit 16" away.
Guthwulf stops 10" away as that's half his swift engage (or does he stop 8" as that's half the swift engage move in this instance?)
The Tarvax unit engages. Does the Guthwulf get his bulk charge?
Eg2.
Freawulf charges Tarvax unit 16" away.
Freawulf stops 9" away as that's half his swift engage (or do they stop 8" as that's half the swift engage move in this instance?)
The Tarvax unit engages remaining 7-8". Do the Tarvax get bulk charge?
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Rob Lane
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Re: Counter Engage

Postby Rob Lane » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:49 pm

Well, what does it say in the rule book?

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James Harding
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Re: Counter Engage

Postby James Harding » Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:21 pm

I've been looking in the rules Rob.
Bulk Charge (2.4.5.2.6) allow models to make impact strikes against smaller based models if they are Swift Charging (no mention of distance)
Combat Modifiers give bonuses and negatives to models who are Swift Charging (6.12.3.1)
There are some other instances where being a Swift Charger gets you a bonus (Charge+ weapons)

The Engage section (6.10.5.1) states "An Engaging unit must first decide upon whether it will Engage or Swift Engage; effectively, how far it will Engage Move towards the enemy"

So the Charging Feral Unit decides it will use its Swift Engage move.
This is defined (6.10.5.1.2) as "as further than the Engaging unit's current PACE attribute (or at further than half its current FLIGHT attribute in the case of a Flying Engaging unit)."

The step about calculating Engage distance (6.10.5.6) then states "The engagement distance is then compared to the engage distance, which is equal to the Direct Engaging unit's ENGAGE MOVE or SWIFT ENGAGE MOVE (whichever the Direct Engaging unit is using) added to the Direct Engaging unit's highest attack range (from a combat weapon that can currently be used). Warriors do not always have to get into attack contact!"
Followed by (6.10.6) "The Engaging unit's warriors then make their Engage Move directly toward the Engaged units, up to their ENGAGE MOVE (or SWIFT ENGAGE MOVE) in inches, to engage the Engaged units in combat."

There is a further section on Swift Engagers (6.10.6.6) which states "Swift Engaging warriors are entitled to certain bonuses during some actions, such as being able to use weapons with the Impact Strike rule and the Charge Attack action where enemy parries are more difficult."
And also states "If the majority of warriors within a Direct Engaging unit are Swift Engaging warriors (determined by the strength of the Warriors), place a Swift Engage Token next to the unit" however there are exceptions "If none of the Direct Engaging warriors Engage Move further than their MOVE attribute (or half their FLY attribute), the Engaging unit is deemed to have performed an Engage and not a Swift Engage".


I think I've found all the relevant sections on Engaging.

So to go back to my earlier example, Guthwulf v Tarvax.
Guthwulf declares his charge. They measure and determine that the Guthwulf is 14" away (in Swift Engage range)
The Counter Engage rules state it moves half its Swift Engage Move, so it moves 9" (half its Swift Engage MOVE rather than half the distance)
The Tarvax then go 9" to get as many models in contact as possible, and use their Swift Engage Move.
So, looking at the criteria for Bulk Charge.
Is the Guthwulf higher strength than the Tarvax? Yes
Did it use its Swift Engage Move? Yes
Is the Majority Strength of the Guthwulf unit Swift Engaging? Yes (there is only one in this example, but with two its less clear as there is no majority!)
How many of the Warriors Engage Moved over their Pace? None, as they stopped at half their Swift Engage Move as per the Counter Engage rules, which is their Pace, and are deemed to have performed an Engage more rather than a Swift Engage move.

Ah. This then means that all units that get Counter charged will loose their Bulk Charge as they have to stop at their Pace.
This also mean they will not cause the Parry modifier as they are deemed to have only Engaged.
Though if the counter charging unit is the one with the Higher Strength, they may get the Bulk Charge and parry modifiers
is this interpretation correct? As it seems to benefit the slower moving Ferals as they will find it easier to get their bulk charges on the Counter Engage.
And what about situations where the units can't reach? E.g. Meganwulf charging 20" v Feral with Pace 4. The Megan stops 10" away (Half Swift Engage) then the other Feral goes 8". Still a 2" gap.

I have made the assumption that Swift Engager and Swift Charger are the same thing as there appears to be no point at which there relationship is clarified.


Presumably when both units have Charge+ and/or Bulk Charge attacks (eg. Cav v Cav or Guth/Meganwulf units bound to Freawulf v Tarvax) these happen in skill order too?

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