Multiple units involved in combat

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dento
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Multiple units involved in combat

Postby dento » Mon May 29, 2017 12:15 pm

Hi all,

I asked this big question at Rob. He proposed to share it here so everyone can see the answer. ;)



Hi Rob,

This weekend Beire and me will be presented at a event to demo Darklands.

The games are running smooth but their is one thing we struggle with :
Calculate the attack results but with multiple units involved in combat.

Example:

Oghurithne unit with 10 = Unit strength 30
Umaer + 10 gairlom = Unit strength 11
Troll Jarl + 5 trolls = Unit strength 24

The Umaer will force the initiative and swift charge the Troll unit with his unit and Oghurithne unit.

In combat the Gairlom inflict wounds for 4 blood tokens, the Oghurithne inflict wounds for 7 blood tokens. They kill together 2 trolls and wound 1 badly. Both units becomes exulted.

The troll unit will react and hit hard back. They focus all their attacks on the Oghurithne unit and kill 3 off them. So receiving 10 blood tokens. The Oghurithne unit will lose their 7 blood and exulted token.

Calculate the results.

Troll unit vs Gairlom :

Troll unit has strong, exulted, 10 blood and banner token = 13
Gairlom/Umaer has exulted, 4 blood, swift, banner token = 7
Troll unit has a 6 victory score vs Gairlom unit and they receive 6 defeat tokens.
The Gairlom unit remove the exulted, swift and blood tokens because they are defeated.

Troll unit vs Oghurithne :

Troll unit has exulted, 10 blood and banner token = 12
Oghurithne unit has strong, swift and banner token = 3
Troll unit has a 9 victory score vs Oghurithne unit and they receive 9 defeat tokens.
The Oghurithne unit remove the strong and swift token because they are defeated.


The Gairlom and Oghurithne unit both takes a panic reaction. The Oghurithne unit has rolled the panic result on the wild table.

Gairlom unit panic test :

6 defeat and banner token = -50 on fortitude test. They passed it and stay in combat but receive a shaken token.

Oghurithne unit panic test :

9 defeat and banner token = -80 on fortitude test. They fail and becomes a fleeing unit and receive a broken token.

The troll unit choose to chase down the Oghurithne unit. They are still engaged with the Gairlom unit but are stronger and able to do that.

The Troll unit are quicker then the Oghurithne but are not the strong unit so will reflex attack the Oghurithne before they move their chase distance. After the reflex attacks the troll unit moves his chase distance. Now the Gairlom unit can reflex attack the trolls because they move out of the attack range/combat.

When that is finished the combat is done. And we haven't even played 1 battle hour yet :D . That is what we like about this game but do we play this part correct ? We want to be sure.

Greetings,

Dento and Beire
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Byzantii V
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Re: Multiple units involved in combat

Postby Byzantii V » Tue May 30, 2017 10:10 am

I don't have the answer for you guys, but thank you for the question. To me, it really clearly shows what I am supposed to be doing to resolve a combat...assuming the info above is correct of course!
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JediCat
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Re: Multiple units involved in combat

Postby JediCat » Tue May 30, 2017 12:58 pm

My only point to add here is that exulted isn't until after all attacks and such; if you look at "Attack Results Sequence" on page 207, you calculate Scores and Victorious/Defeated before exulted is applied. (Step 6 vs Step 7 on the picture)
"Be as brutal and as sneaky and as nasty with your list as you wish - Darklands is not pink fluffy communist Warhammer" ~Rob Lane, May 17th, 2017
dento
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Re: Multiple units involved in combat

Postby dento » Tue May 30, 2017 3:08 pm

You get exulted when you get blood. Page 33

You also lose all blood when you are not exulted anymore.
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JediCat
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Re: Multiple units involved in combat

Postby JediCat » Tue May 30, 2017 5:47 pm

I guess thats a conflict then that Rob can also answer: In combat, are you exulted as soon as you get blood (pg. 33) or do you only gain exulted as a result of the attack resolution (as summarized on pg. 207)?
"Be as brutal and as sneaky and as nasty with your list as you wish - Darklands is not pink fluffy communist Warhammer" ~Rob Lane, May 17th, 2017
dento
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Re: Multiple units involved in combat

Postby dento » Wed May 31, 2017 5:15 am

You also can use the command action inspire to get exulted. Or even when you succesfull daunt enemy units. It is not only linked to close combat.

You also get exulted and blood with shoot and invoke actions.
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Re: Multiple units involved in combat

Postby JediCat » Wed May 31, 2017 5:50 am

Well yes, that much is clear. I specifically mean in the case of blood gained through combat/exulted as a result of being in combat. The attack resolution step explicitly calls out when you get exulted, hence why I am unsure as to whether or not blood during close combat triggers exulted.

EDIT: After reading more into Shoot and Invoke, I see that my question applies to all 3 damaging actions: Does gaining blood meaning you are exulted during those combat actions? Or is it only in the "Attach Exulted token" step?
"Be as brutal and as sneaky and as nasty with your list as you wish - Darklands is not pink fluffy communist Warhammer" ~Rob Lane, May 17th, 2017
dento
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Re: Multiple units involved in combat

Postby dento » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:23 am

Robbyrobrob :?: ;)
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Re: Multiple units involved in combat

Postby Rob Lane » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:50 am

dento wrote:Hi all,
I asked this big question at Rob. He proposed to share it here so everyone can see the answer. ;)


I'm here, I'm here... apologies, I've been amazingly busy!

dento wrote:Hi Rob,

This weekend Beire and me will be presented at a event to demo Darklands.

The games are running smooth but their is one thing we struggle with :
Calculate the attack results but with multiple units involved in combat.

Example:

Oghurithne unit with 10 = Unit strength 30
Umaer + 10 gairlom = Unit strength 11
Troll Jarl + 5 trolls = Unit strength 24

The Umaer will force the initiative and swift charge the Troll unit with his unit and Oghurithne unit.

In combat the Gairlom inflict wounds for 4 blood tokens, the Oghurithne inflict wounds for 7 blood tokens. They kill together 2 trolls and wound 1 badly. Both units becomes exulted.

The troll unit will react and hit hard back. They focus all their attacks on the Oghurithne unit and kill 3 off them. So receiving 10 blood tokens. The Oghurithne unit will lose their 7 blood and exulted token.

Calculate the results.

Troll unit vs Gairlom :

Troll unit has strong, exulted, 10 blood and banner token = 13
Gairlom/Umaer has exulted, 4 blood, swift, banner token = 7
Troll unit has a 6 victory score vs Gairlom unit and they receive 6 defeat tokens.
The Gairlom unit remove the exulted, swift and blood tokens because they are defeated.


I'll stop you there.

Firstly, don't count Exulted unless a unit already has Exulted. Exulted tokens are only granted after attack results. Not sure why you think p33 contradicts this, because I can't see where you get that from.

Secondly, as you've Forced the Initiative, this is slightly more complicated than normal attack results (so anybody that is reading this should bear that in mind), but as long as you treat both of the Forced Units as if it were a Bound unit, things should be fine. I need to add this in I think. This is because you seem to be treating the Gairlom/Oghurithne as a single unit when they Attack and are Attacked back, but then treat them as two different units for attack results purposes; this is inconsistent, so I guess I need to add that Bound unit rule here.

Anyway; let's do this.

Trolls v Gairlom/Oghurithne:
The Gairlom gained 4 blood and the Oghurithne gained 7 blood. That means the Bound Gairlom / Oghurithne gain 11 blood in total.
The Trolls only Attacked the Oghurithne, but as they are attacking a Bound unit, they are affecting both the Gairlom/Oghurithne. They gain 10 blood. As blood tokens are removed depending upon the amount of damage they've received during the Combat, remove that 10 blood and reduce the Gairlom / Oghurithne correspondingly to 1 blood.

The Gairlom/Oghurithne have strong (The Oghurithne lost three warriors so are now 15, and the Gairlom stay at 11 = 26; the Trolls lost two warriors so are only 16) and a banner. As they're up by 1 blood, that gives them an attack score of 3.
The Trolls have a banner, which gives them an attack score of 1 (if you want, you could ignore the reduction of blood, and you could say the Gairlom/Oghurithne have 13 and the Trolls have 11. Makes no difference though).
Thus, the Trolls have lost the combat by 2, gain 2 defeated tokens and must then take a Panic reaction at -20 on the dice.

Cheers
Rob
dento
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Re: Multiple units involved in combat

Postby dento » Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:33 pm

Ok, I thought you get exulted when you received blood with combat, shooting, etc.

I just wanted to create a situation where more as 1 unit ( no bound ) is involved in combat.
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Rob Lane
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Re: Multiple units involved in combat

Postby Rob Lane » Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:48 pm

dento wrote:Ok, I thought you get exulted when you received blood with combat, shooting, etc.


You only get Exulted (except for Inspire, etc.) after attack results - i.e., if a unit is Victorious.

dento wrote:I just wanted to create a situation where more as 1 unit ( no bound ) is involved in combat.


That happens often, two units against one unit; but the situation you've described wouldn't happen unless both Gairlom / Oghurithne were Forced.

Are you trying to ask me what would happen if two units were against one unit? To take your example, if the Gairlom were already in combat with the Trolls, and the Trolls were Charged by the Oghurithne, they couldn't Attack React against the Gairlom; and so the Gairlom could not lose the combat no matter what happened against the Oghurithne.

Cheers
Rob
dento
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Re: Multiple units involved in combat

Postby dento » Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:37 pm

For that reason I used the situation were Gairlom and Oghurithne were forced to engage the troll unit ( 2 units vs 1 unit ).
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Re: Multiple units involved in combat

Postby Rob Lane » Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:44 am

dento wrote:For that reason I used the situation were Gairlom and Oghurithne were forced to engage the troll unit ( 2 units vs 1 unit ).


I understand that, but it could never work in the way you've done it except by Forcing the Initiative.

For example, the Gairlom are already engaged with the Trolls before the Oghurithne Charge them. The Trolls cannot Attack React against the Gairlom as they can only Attack React against a unit that has Attacked them - i.e., the Oghurithne. Thus, the Gairlom will never be affected by what happens between the Oghurithne and Trolls (except via a Panic reaction should the Oghurithne die / break).

Does that make sense?

Cheers
Rob
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Re: Multiple units involved in combat

Postby HughB » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:30 pm

Think I've come across this kind of situation a few times before when I've been playing and I think its almost as a hang over effect from playing warhammer. In GW games, close combats are usually treated as amorphous scrums where everyone involved gets to attack.

This rules query has clarified the situation a bit in my head that what occurs in darklands is usually (units forcing the initiative being a notable exception) that one unit undertakes an action and then other units react to that action. So in the case stated, the only members of the unit that can attack react are those that are engaged by the attacking unit and they can only react to attack the attacking unit, correct? So the troll unit can't use the fact they're being attacked by the Oghurithne as a sneaky chance to react and beat on the gairlom a little bit too? They must react against the thing that has caused them to react in the first place?
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Re: Multiple units involved in combat

Postby Rob Lane » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:40 pm

HughB wrote:Think I've come across this kind of situation a few times before when I've been playing and I think its almost as a hang over effect from playing warhammer. In GW games, close combats are usually treated as amorphous scrums where everyone involved gets to attack.


Yeah, definitely - it can get really confusing in those scrums, and that's something I definitely wanted to avoid with Darklands - and the way activations work kind of forbids those scrums anyway.

HughB wrote:This rules query has clarified the situation a bit in my head that what occurs in darklands is usually (units forcing the initiative being a notable exception) that one unit undertakes an action and then other units react to that action.


That's right; Units can only react to something that's occurred to them. Even so, Forcing the Initiative isn't really an exception, it's the opposite as I've had to make the two Forced units a single unit (a Bound unit) to ensure the mechanics work correctly.

HughB wrote:So in the case stated, the only members of the unit that can attack react are those that are engaged by the attacking unit and they can only react to attack the attacking unit, correct?


Not quite - only the unit that has been Attacked can Attack React. Being engaged is something different - i.e., it's physical; a unit is engaged if it is within its own warriors' attack range of an enemy unit.

HughB wrote:So the troll unit can't use the fact they're being attacked by the Oghurithne as a sneaky chance to react and beat on the gairlom a little bit too? They must react against the thing that has caused them to react in the first place?


Yep! That's entirely correct. It stops combats being a total free for all, and in the situation you mention there, it specifically stops players holding back their Charges for fear of the enemy beating on another unit of theirs (which does happen in Warhammer, or at least it used to).

As always - I want to get units stuck in to each other!

Cheers
Rob
dento
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Re: Multiple units involved in combat

Postby dento » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:22 am

Ok tx

There is a example in the rulebook about forcing the iniative with 2 units charging a enemy unit.

The enemy unit can perform attack reactions against both units. After the combat. Do you combine both units vs the enemy unit if you calculate the attack results ?
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Re: Multiple units involved in combat

Postby Rob Lane » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:59 pm

dento wrote:Ok tx

There is a example in the rulebook about forcing the iniative with 2 units charging a enemy unit.

The enemy unit can perform attack reactions against both units. After the combat. Do you combine both units vs the enemy unit if you calculate the attack results ?


Yes, because it's now a Bound unit - a single unit, effectively.

Cheers
Rob
dento
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Re: Multiple units involved in combat

Postby dento » Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:01 am

Ok tx.

Would work easier.

Just one thing.

If the enemy unit would flee you also chase with the bound unit ? Using the majority pace value from that bound unit ?


tx
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Re: Multiple units involved in combat

Postby Rob Lane » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:56 am

dento wrote:Just one thing. If the enemy unit would flee you also chase with the bound unit ?


Depending on the Chase requirements, yes.

dento wrote:Using the majority pace value from that bound unit ?


"Majority PACE"? What do you mean?

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Rob
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Re: Multiple units involved in combat

Postby dento » Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:06 am

The majority pace value of that bound unit. If the bound unit exist of warriors with pace 5 and 6 for example.

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