Effective Size and Ubiquity for 1+/3

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Blue Prophet
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Effective Size and Ubiquity for 1+/3

Postby Blue Prophet » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:49 am

I was reviewing the Muster Rules in trying to build a playable force, or figure out what needs to be assembled for one.

I am confused on whether the the Effective Size of a 1+/3 unit that is needed to count the unit's Ubiquity must be 2. Or can it be 1? The rule says to round up. That is a big deal going from 1 to 2 figures.

Since the units that have 1+/3 almost always started with one sculpt, or still have only one sculpt, it seems implied that they should be playable with the existing miniatures without duplicates. That is the assumption I have always made. So I planned on using the 1 figure I have to count towards ubiquity for these types of units. The one exception is I have on order a second Morannach - he could work as a duplicate I think.

How do those of you who have played the game treat this? Am I missing someplace that has an exception for these units? Do any of you hand-wave this rule if it requires 2 for the unit to count towards ubiquity.

One example for me is the Felltroll. He becomes Common with a troll commander, and he is needed to fill the common slot in a few 2000gold army builds. I have one unassembled Felltroll, which will be the only one for some time. I should be able to field him with the current rules, right?
HughB
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Re: Effective Size and Ubiquity for 1+/3

Postby HughB » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:01 pm

Hiya

While being very far from rules experts, our gaming group have come across this issue several times with the Fomoraic muster when using gul gabrox and sronox in particular. The way we interpret it is that you need two models to fulfill minimum ubiquity I'm afraid sorry. I've currently got three gul gabrox models and one of the other group has three sronox (my advice would be abuse the next BOGOF give away that comes out) in various degrees of being painted. I've not got the nerve or skills that Orlando/Yxalitis have to convert my mierce stuff yet but you could always consider a few conversion tweaks as well as varying paint schemes if you're not a fan of the monopose phenomenon.

The other option of course is that we can't tell you that you're having fun wrong. If the rest of your group are happy with it, you can always have a house rule that allows you to count 1 model from a 1-3 unit towards your minimum ubiquity requirements.

Its your resin and you can cry if you want to quite frankly ;-)

H
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Rob Lane
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Re: Effective Size and Ubiquity for 1+/3

Postby Rob Lane » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:24 am

Blue Prophet wrote:I was reviewing the Muster Rules in trying to build a playable force, or figure out what needs to be assembled for one.

I am confused on whether the the Effective Size of a 1+/3 unit that is needed to count the unit's Ubiquity must be 2. Or can it be 1? The rule says to round up. That is a big deal going from 1 to 2 figures.

Since the units that have 1+/3 almost always started with one sculpt, or still have only one sculpt, it seems implied that they should be playable with the existing miniatures without duplicates. That is the assumption I have always made. So I planned on using the 1 figure I have to count towards ubiquity for these types of units. The one exception is I have on order a second Morannach - he could work as a duplicate I think.

How do those of you who have played the game treat this? Am I missing someplace that has an exception for these units? Do any of you hand-wave this rule if it requires 2 for the unit to count towards ubiquity.

One example for me is the Felltroll. He becomes Common with a troll commander, and he is needed to fill the common slot in a few 2000gold army builds. I have one unassembled Felltroll, which will be the only one for some time. I should be able to field him with the current rules, right?


Effective Size only comes into play to fulfil Minimum Ubiquity requirements; so yes, for them to count as fulfilling them, the unit has to be 2 strong.

I'll put it another way: the minimum ubiquities are there to make you take infantry. It's not there to help you take monsters...

Cheers
Rob
Blue Prophet
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Re: Effective Size and Ubiquity for 1+/3

Postby Blue Prophet » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:42 pm

Here is a specific case that I'm looking at. I'm working on painting some Norse as my first playable kindred (still need to find an opponent). I have 10 Holumann and Birna painted up. Am working on 4 trolls (with the 5th and the three troll leaders on deck, along with Rollo). I can get to an Encounter or Skirmish level fine.

But this is one Battle muster is what I'm considering, as I have all the models for this right now. (grouped with leader first, starting with general).

1 - Troll Konungr (rare)
2 - Trolls (mainstay, not meeting minimum)
1 - Felltroll (common, not meeting minimum according rules - I originally was expecting it to meet minimum)

1 - Troll Jarl (uncommon)
3 - Trolls (mainstay)

1- Troll Gothi (uncommon(2))
1 - Gythja (uncommon)

1- Visi (comon)
10 - Holumann (mainstay)
1 - Jotunn (rare)

1 - Hrafnmann Jarl (uncommon)
5 - Hrafnmann (mainstay)

This build costs 1981 last I checked. I was counting on the Felltroll fitting one of the two Common slots. I don't want to buy a second Felltroll figure when two new ones will be made next year sometime. So realistically the only way I can fill that second Common slot is to add another Visi. This means losing one Hrafnmann or maybe one of those two trolls with the Konungr. To me it seems silly that those are my only realistic options with this basic build. The point of this build was to field the Jotunn along with models that I already have. If I had a sixth Troll, I'd consider having two troll units of 3 instead of needing that Hrafnmann groups for mainstay.

In this kind of situation, I am not going to add another whole group of infantry (though I do have Holumann Bowmen on order, which will be Common). Maybe someday I'll have Leiptrolls to fill a common slot, but right now I feel the above should be a viable build. I don't think it would be difficult to have an opponent agree to this.

Of all the Norse figures currently produced, only Visi and influenced Felltrolls and veteran Holumann have Common ubiquity. Holumann are probably going to be used as mainstay for most people (I only have 10 anyway, maybe will get another 10 of the new sculpt someday). I don't think it is too fair to require someone to buy two of the same exact model if multiples are planned (Felltrolls). I have Birna and Ravener Birna but no Kjartan for Visi (If I am strict about using the figures listed for Visi - which I don't feel is that important, I'm sure Eirik could stand in for Kjartan). Maybe this whole issue has more to do with Norse not being fleshed out enough as a kindred to easily build using minimum ubiquities. I brought it up because it doesn't make sense to me in this instance.
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Alex (ÉgB)
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Re: Effective Size and Ubiquity for 1+/3

Postby Alex (ÉgB) » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:08 pm

If your opponent agrees to it then it doesn't matter really does it?

Each kindred has its own challenges when it comes to builds - some eat Uncommons like you wouldn't believe (Érainn, I'm looking at you), others have limited options for filling Mainstay slots or whatever - but that doesn't mean anything is wrong per se just cause you can't quite build what you'd like to do when you strictly RAW the muster rules.

Some of these issues (like yours) will be fixed when alt sculpts etc are done as you won't need to duplicate models in a unit, and in the meantime you can play with what you have - or maybe try an escalation approach so by the time you can have a 'legal' list you'll be ready for 2000gold games.
Érainn go Brách!

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Rob Lane
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Re: Effective Size and Ubiquity for 1+/3

Postby Rob Lane » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:01 am

Blue Prophet,
I'll be fixing the effective size issues you're encountering here shortly; there'll be a change to the way effective size is organised and it will be profile dependent.

For example, most 80mm units are 1+/3; effective size will be sandwiched inbetween the min and max, so you'll get 1+/1+/3. Similarly, other units will be min+/eff+/max, etc. etc.

However, not that effective size won't be strictly necessary for many units now as I'm changing the way units are mustered.

Cheers
Rob

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