Hook vs. Shieldwall

[Icchan]

How do weapons with Hook trait work against units in Shieldwall formation, if at all?
I'm guessing no, since Hook trait only says shields don't provide parry modifiers if used to defend against weapons with Hook, but it doesn't seem like shield equipment is used in Shieldwall parry, only that you have to have a shield (and shieldwall ability) to form a Shieldwall.
But the fluff text for Hook specifically says that hooked weapons were developed to be used against shieldwalls, so it'd be weird if they didn't work against Shieldwalls in the game.

[Rob Lane]

How do weapons with Hook trait work against units in Shieldwall formation, if at all?
I'm guessing no, since Hook trait only says shields don't provide parry modifiers if used to defend against weapons with Hook, but it doesn't seem like shield equipment is used in Shieldwall parry, only that you have to have a shield (and shieldwall ability) to form a Shieldwall.
But the fluff text for Hook specifically says that hooked weapons were developed to be used against shieldwalls, so it'd be weird if they didn't work against Shieldwalls in the game.

Simply put: Hook negates parry modifiers for shields, whether in Shieldwall or not. You have to have a shield to form a Shieldwall unit.

Remember that not all axes have the Hook ability. So it's not all bad!

Cheers
Rob

[Icchan]

Ah, so Hooks negate the Shieldwall entirely? If the attacked unit has a choice of weapons that have parry, they can use those at least then?

Correct, it's only shields that are negated.

Cheers
Rob

[Rob Lane]

Ah sorry, I edited the post rather than replied to it.

You all got the gist though, I'm sure!

Cheers
Rob

[Simock03]

Hello,
Just looking at this ourselves. The shieldwall ability says nothing about having a shield (once you are in the shieldwall formation, as in its not in the criteria for remaining a shieldwall warrior)... it says that you must have the shieldwall ability, which in SOME cases is given by having a shield, in others is just on the warriors profile.
Having read the 2.0 rulebook several times, I think rules as written hook does nothing to shieldwall, but would ignore shields when out of shieldwall.

Hook:
Shields do not gain a parry modifier in combat if they are being used to parry the strike dice of weapons with the rule ‘hook’, even for warriors with the ‘shieldwall’ ability. This only applies if the mass of the Hooking warrior is greater than or equal to the mass of the warrior with the shield, and if the Hooking warrior is not the rider of a mount.

The issue with this is that the shieldwall -1/-2/-3 is not from a shield, but from been a shieldwall warrior.

Remaining a shieldwall:
A unit remains a Shieldwall unit as long as the majority of its warriors are within base contact of another warrior from the Shieldwall unit. Even so, a Shieldwall warrior cannot perform certain vigorous or wearying actions - at least, voluntarily - and remain in that Shieldwall. Shieldwall warriors may perform the vigorous or wearying actions (as well as any command or effortless actions) defined in the Shieldwall Actions and Reactions List below, and still remain a Shieldwall warrior.

I guess the intent here is that hook should break shieldwall units of lower mass?

[Rob Lane]

Hello,
Just looking at this ourselves. The shieldwall ability says nothing about having a shield (once you are in the shieldwall formation, as in its not in the criteria for remaining a shieldwall warrior)... it says that you must have the shieldwall ability, which in SOME cases is given by having a shield, in others is just on the warriors profile.
Having read the 2.0 rulebook several times, I think rules as written hook does nothing to shieldwall, but would ignore shields when out of shieldwall.

Hook:
Shields do not gain a parry modifier in combat if they are being used to parry the strike dice of weapons with the rule ‘hook’, even for warriors with the ‘shieldwall’ ability. This only applies if the mass of the Hooking warrior is greater than or equal to the mass of the warrior with the shield, and if the Hooking warrior is not the rider of a mount.

The issue with this is that the shieldwall -1/-2/-3 is not from a shield, but from been a shieldwall warrior.

Remaining a shieldwall:
A unit remains a Shieldwall unit as long as the majority of its warriors are within base contact of another warrior from the Shieldwall unit. Even so, a Shieldwall warrior cannot perform certain vigorous or wearying actions - at least, voluntarily - and remain in that Shieldwall. Shieldwall warriors may perform the vigorous or wearying actions (as well as any command or effortless actions) defined in the Shieldwall Actions and Reactions List below, and still remain a Shieldwall warrior.

I guess the intent here is that hook should break shieldwall units of lower mass?

I thought I'd covered this, to be honest - to gain the shieldwall ability you need to bear a shield (it's in the requirements), and thus you get a parry modifier for bearing one in a shieldwall. Hook negates parry modifiers from shields. Maybe I'm being dense, but it seems pretty clear to me? If not I can always add something to Hook.

Cheers
Rob

[Simock03]

The issue is it's not a requirement to stay in shieldwall.

Also shieldwall doesn't say the parry modifier comes from the shield, just from being in shieldwall. Maybe if the shieldwall parry modifier said the shield gains +3/+2/+1?

[Rob Lane]

The issue is it's not a requirement to stay in shieldwall.

I don't understand you to be honest - why is that an issue for the ‘hook’ rule?

Also shieldwall doesn't say the parry modifier comes from the shield, just from being in shieldwall. Maybe if the shieldwall parry modifier said the shield gains +3/+2/+1?

You only get the shieldwall modifier if you have a shield - the requirements for shieldwall say so; so it's kind of moot as to whether the parry modifier says it comes from the shield or not, but I get where you're coming from. I can add that in.

Regardless of the above, and for the avoidance of doubt, the intent of ‘hook’ is to negate parry modifiers from shields.

Cheers
Rob

[Simock03]

But the shieldwall modifier isn't coming from a shield. So hook ignoring shield parry modifiers doesn't have the intended effect.
The hook rule could have in that it ignores shield parry modifiers and shieldwall parry modifiers or shieldwall could have that the parry modifier comes from the shield.

[Rob Lane]

But the shieldwall modifier isn't coming from a shield. So hook ignoring shield parry modifiers doesn't have the intended effect.
The hook rule could have in that it ignores shield parry modifiers and shieldwall parry modifiers or shieldwall could have that the parry modifier comes from the shield.

Regardless, I've changed Hook to specifically sort out this issue.

Cheers
Rob