Counter engaging and trampling

[HughB]

Got another one to ask about I'm afraid.

So when a counter engaging unit counter engages, is there a limit to what types of engagement it can make? Can a counter engaging unit counter engage, with a slam, stomp, grab or a trample for example?

If a unit is attempting to trample through or into a counter engaging unit, how does this work? Do they contact each other at the halfway mark and then the trampling unit trample through and past the counter engaging unit. Do the counter engagers only get reflex attacks or all of their attacks?

Thanks for any advice you can give

Hugh

[Rob Lane]

Got another one to ask about I'm afraid.

So when a counter engaging unit counter engages, is there a limit to what types of engagement it can make? Can a counter engaging unit counter engage, with a slam, stomp, grab or a trample for example?

See p 331, 7.11.2.1, Declare the Counter-Engagement... along with a slap resounding to the words "read the rulebook"!!

If a unit is attempting to trample through or into a counter engaging unit, how does this work? Do they contact each other at the halfway mark and then the trampling unit trample through and past the counter engaging unit.

It's all about being / not being Swift. The Trampling Unit stops half way along its ENGAGE MOVE, so they can't perform an impact strike as they're no longer Swift (which is defined as moving greater than their PACE). Thus, they can't perform a Trample action, as the 6.13.1.1 Requirements on p169 can't be fulfilled. So they'll just have to perform a normal Attack action on the Counter-Engagers.

If, however, for some reason they are still Swift (for whatever reason - say, an invocation) it comes down to whether the Trampling Unit has Moved over an enemy warrior. If it hasn't, it can't Trample. If it has, it can. Then you work out "Who Goes First?" on p323.

the counter engagers only get reflex attacks or all of their attacks?

All of them. Counter-Engaging is a great way to annoy Tramplers and Slammers!

Cheers
Rob

[HughB]

Fair cop on the rules reading for what counter engagers are and are not allowed to do, my bad.

I think I've read the slam and trample rules a bit wrong from what you're saying. In the descriptions of both rules, as you state, it says that at least one warrior within the unit has to be able to be classed as a swift charger/trampler/slammer. So you must be trampling towards a target unit that is further than your pace away, you can't just trample through a unit that is within your pace value to a point on the board that is over your pace value?

It does go on to say later in the rules that some models can be described as either tramplers/swift tramplers or having trample moved/swift trample moved. Is this to cover the situation where you may get stragglers in a unit of models that is trampling/slamming that don't quite move far enough to e counted as swift?

Just to check but am I right in thinking that a whole unit of gul gabrax (for example) can slam a unit that they are attacking presuming that at least some of the gul gabrax are swift engaging?

[Rob Lane]

Fair cop on the rules reading for what counter engagers are and are not allowed to do, my bad.

I always say to people in person (when they ask me about rules) - "What does it say in the rulebook?" - although I accept that the bloody index needs sorting... and I'm not perfect, and neither is the rulebook!

I think I've read the slam and trample rules a bit wrong from what you're saying. In the descriptions of both rules, as you state, it says that at least one warrior within the unit has to be able to be classed as a swift charger/trampler/slammer. So you must be trampling towards a target unit that is further than your pace away, you can't just trample through a unit that is within your pace value to a point on the board that is over your pace value?

Tramples, Slams and Charges can be any PACE of course, but at least one warrior must move further than their PACE for the Engagement action to be a Slam or Trample - as you need to be able to perform impact strikes, which only occur if you're going further than your PACE. So, for example, if you have a Trampling warrior with a Trampled unit within 2", you don't just move 2", at least one warrior must move over his PACE beyond the Trampled Unit.

The intention is to make Tramplers and Slammers Move as fast as they can, because it's silly to have them Move very little and then perform such a brutal thing.

Counter-Engaging stops you half-way, so you can't Trample. That's what we were talking about so I didn't say much more than that really.

Charging doesn't require you to be Swift; but obviously there's benefits to being a Swift Charger.

It does go on to say later in the rules that some models can be described as either tramplers/swift tramplers or having trample moved/swift trample moved. Is this to cover the situation where you may get stragglers in a unit of models that is trampling/slamming that don't quite move far enough to e counted as swift?

Yeah, basically. They can still Trample or Slam, but don't get impact strikes or Charge+ attacks. Tramplers can actually stop Moving once they've Moved over an enemy warrior, although at least one Trampler has to Move over his PACE, and the unit has to stay coherent, so it's not easy to do this.

Just to check but am I right in thinking that a whole unit of gul gabrax (for example) can slam a unit that they are attacking presuming that at least some of the gul gabrax are swift engaging?

Yes.

I do think the Trample and Slam actions are poorly worded regarding whether they have to be Swift or not, so I'll endeavour to make things a little clearer, which I'm happy about - I don't like unclear rules and I love the way you've picked it apart. Keep doing that Hugh!

Cheers
Rob

[Rob Lane]

Right.

Having thought about it a fair bit I've changed the Trample / Slam actions slightly. You don't now have to be Swift to Trample or Slam, and I've made sure at least one Trampler has to Move over an enemy's base to perform a Trample.

Note that when Counter-Engaging a Trampling unit, the Counter-Engagers will likely be feral or frenzied, so they have to get into base contact. Even so, this means Tramplers and Slammers can't perform impact strikes or Charge+ attacks against Counter-Engagers, as they're not Swift (unless, as I said before, they somehow can Move further than their PACE, perhaps due to an invocation).

Cheers