New player... basic question re. Muster rules

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Geoff
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New player... basic question re. Muster rules

Postby Geoff » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:38 am

Hail and well met!

Brand new player (well, to be) and have been reading the 2.11 Muster Rules to see how to field the Mini's I bought @ Salute. Ran into a basic rule that has me stumped already. Given the depth of the main rulebook I will more than likely be a regular pain in the ass with inevitable questions in the future, so please accept my apologies in advance. Anyway, here we are -


Every Command that is not an individual requires at least ONE Mainstay unit at effective strength (true or false?)

> No units state 'Mainstay' in its Ubiquity slot, the lowest I can see is 'Common'.

> From what I can glean off the forum a 'Mainstay' unit is one that is Compelled by its Commander, or two Common units that are Influenced.

The example from 1.1.4.3.1


EXAMPLE
Looking at the Ubiquity Limits table, there must be at least
one Mainstay unit in each command, and whilst the War-
Drune's command fulfils that requirement, the Seer-Drune's
command does not - and so the War-Drune must give one
unit of Ax-Drunes (which are Mainstay) to the Seer-Drune
and this gives the War-Drune enough COMMAND
AUTHORITY to be able to command the Mantichora himself.


..BUT!!! The Seer-Drune (according to my Ysian muster lists) has NO Compell or Influence over ANY units, so how can she use them as Mainstays?


1 · 1 · 8 · 1 · 1
COMPEL (X)
A commander with the Compel (x) ability (now also called a
Compelling commander or Compeller) may muster units
with the title (x) - now called Compelled units - from his
own realm (and in his own command) as if they were
Mainstay units.

...now I am sure I am just overlooking a small but very important line of text somewhere in the Muster rules so any help here would be of great aid.

Thanks!
Jonathon Chester
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Re: New player... basic question re. Muster rules

Postby Jonathon Chester » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:23 am

Firstly welcome to the community, whereabouts are you based? Don't worry about asking lots of question, I for one would rather have lots questions asked as it helps not only yourself but us to reaffirm our knowledge too :D

Now onto your questions:

Every Command that is not an individual requires at least ONE Mainstay unit at effective strength (true or false?)


This is true. Now I believe you can upgrade your Ax-Drunes to Veteran which makes them a mainstay unit? This gives you an option or you could muster the Seer-Drune under another character as with the examples given.

In the majority of muysters there are relatively few base mainstay units but upgrading them to (usually) Veteran makes them a mainstay choice. You're more likely to bring your experienced fighters after all!

I hope this has been helpful and I recommend listening to the Compel and Influence podcast which is currently on Youtube. They have covered these (relatively) new musters in an episode so that may help your understanding further.
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Geoff
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Re: New player... basic question re. Muster rules

Postby Geoff » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:24 am

Thanks for the reply Jonathon. I'm based in NW England, round Preston way.

What about the other queries I have - Are there actually NO units whose Ubiquity is listed as 'Mainstay'? Are ALL mainstay units the ones that are either compelled or influenced? And how may a Commander actually add them to her command if she does not have either skill (such as a Seer-Drune)?
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Re: New player... basic question re. Muster rules

Postby Jonathon Chester » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:44 am

Apologies I thought I answered them in my previous post

Are there actually NO units whose Ubiquity is listed as 'Mainstay'?


From a quick glance through the Ysian muster no units are mainstay at base.

Are ALL mainstay units the ones that are either compelled or influenced? And how may a Commander actually add them to her command if she does not have either skill (such as a Seer-Drune)?


No, if you look at the Ax-Drunes they are common if you muster them at a base level for any commander. However if you pay 3 gold per model to make them a veteran unit their ubiquity is changed to mainstay. This is how commanders that you want to field as separate commands that can neither compel or influence have the mainstay unit.

Hope this has answered it for you :)
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Geoff
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Re: New player... basic question re. Muster rules

Postby Geoff » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:21 pm

Yes, it has. Thank you very, very much Jonathon.

I look forward to having my sanity tested again when I brace my reading glasses, girdle my loins and ...open the rulebook again. I did it once and failed a flee test.
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Re: New player... basic question re. Muster rules

Postby Jonathon Chester » Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:19 pm

Darkgeoff wrote:Yes, it has. Thank you very, very much Jonathon.

I look forward to having my sanity tested again when I brace my reading glasses, girdle my loins and ...open the rulebook again. I did it once and failed a flee test.


Those darn panic reactions! Genuinely my best bit of advice is go through and put tabs on the sections and more key pages and it will help you find things a lot easier :)
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James Balmer
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Re: New player... basic question re. Muster rules

Postby James Balmer » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:02 pm

Well, JonathonYeah beat me to it, but let me be the second on here to welcome you.
It seems most of your questions have been covered already, but I'll just give a little extra context.
The intent with sorcerors, such as the seer-drune, seems to be that they are intended as individuals mustered under another commander, or the host's command, rather than commanders of their own host.
What Jonathon says is correct, even in situations where there is no natural mainstay (ysian and fomoraic are the only two I know for sure don't) there is at least one unit (ax-drunes and reivers, respectively) that can be upgraded (skill, authority, fortitude increase) and this will change their ubiquity to mainstay.
Other than that, best of luck with the rulebook, it certainly is a daunting prospect to tackle.

James
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Geoff
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Re: New player... basic question re. Muster rules

Postby Geoff » Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:55 pm

HI and thanls for the welcome Val.

Thanks again for answering my questions in depth.

After looking at the models I bought and readying for an Encounter, could someone tell me if this Host looks legal and legit?

I would appreciate someone who knows the game to take a glance and give thumbs up/down/advice... thanks!


GENERAL: Annik of Carn Wrach (Auth 75) (47 gold)
GENERALS COMMAND: 10x Ax Drune Vets (Auth 16) (120 gold) with Chains (+20 gold). Inc (for Free) 3 Command Warriors.
HOST COMMAND: Kernuor (Auth 38) (102 gold), Brugg the Death Brute (auth 67) (101 gold) plus Heavy Armour (3 gold). <<NOTE: Because it is a Host Command the Nobles Authority is NOT added together).

INDIVIDUAL: Sairen Rose (Auth 93) (82 gold)

Total Gold spent: 475

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


PLEASE NOTE: The following contradictory sections have thrown me for a loop all day, but have recently read that 1.1.6 should be IGNORED apparantly - This should have been fixed in the 2.11 update but it is still reading wrong.

1 · 1 · 2 · 2
HIGHER AUTHORITY WARRIORS
A general may muster a warrior with a higher AUTHORITY
than his own in his host, but that warrior can never become
the general, nor a commander. He will become an individual
mustered outside of a command.


1 · 1 · 6
MUSTERING INDIVIDUALS
Individuals can be mustered either within a command (as any
other unit) or outside of a command.
If mustered within a command, an individual's AUTHORITY is
never added to that command's COMMAND AUTHORITY; but
the individual's AUTHORITY must be less than their
commander's AUTHORITY.
When mustered outside of a command they form a command
of their own (of which they are commander), but no other
units can be mustered within it. The only restriction to
mustering an individual outside of a command is that an
individual's AUTHORITY must be lower than their general's
AUTHORITY.
James Balmer
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Re: New player... basic question re. Muster rules

Postby James Balmer » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:49 am

Your list looks alright to me.
One question though, you've named them as ax-drune vets (gonna assume veterans, though given the ysian lore veterinarian would be oddly and creepily appropriate as well) but have costed and listed their authority as if they are regular ax-drunes. Either situation is okay, as battle-drunes (annik) can compel the regular ax-drunes to be mainstay anyway.
The individual and authority is an odd one, I personally don't recall seeing anything about it, but would happily accept that it got lost in the updates. However, there are advantages to using a higher authority general usually, so if possible I would consider shifting the death-melusine as your commander, which can be done if you pay for the veteran ax-drunes upgrade.

You also have no invocations on kernuor, you need to reference the table at the top of the muster and purchase some invocations for him, otherwise he's fairly useless.

James
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Geoff
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Re: New player... basic question re. Muster rules

Postby Geoff » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:42 pm

Yeah... they ARE Ax-Drune Veterans, thanks for pulling me up on the cost omission (+30 gold) and the invocations! Cheers James, this is helping me greatly and your input is very much appreciated.

Revised Encounter Host -

GENERAL: Sairen Rose (Auth 93) (82g)

GENERALS COMMAND: 10x Ax Drune Vets (Auth 16) (150g) with Chains (+20g). Inc (for Free) 3 Command Warriors.

HOST COMMAND: (NOTE: Because it is a Host Command the Nobles Authority is NOT added together).

Kernuor (Auth 38) (102g) with Blind (5g), Curse of Kernunnos (16g), Blood Sacrifice (20g)

Brugg the Death Brute (auth 67) (101g) plus Heavy Armour (3g).

TOTAL COST: 496

Question - am I correct in thinking that the HOST COMMAND does NOT require 1 Mainstay unit? The rules state that EVERY Command requires one but also goes on to say Host Commands are only made up of certain listed units of which Mainstay is not mentioned. I guess this overrides the former ruling...
Jonathon Chester
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Re: New player... basic question re. Muster rules

Postby Jonathon Chester » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:49 pm

Question - am I correct in thinking that the HOST COMMAND does NOT require 1 Mainstay unit? The rules state that EVERY Command requires one but also goes on to say Host Commands are only made up of certain listed units of which Mainstay is not mentioned. I guess this overrides the former ruling...


After a quick look you would need a unit of Hearthguard to have a unit in a Host command, which doesn’t need to be mainstay as this isn’t a standard command. I’m unsure if you must have one but after a good look I see nothing to indicate this.

The list looks like a good little force to get you started, you’ll learn multiple aspects of the game. Just be aware as the death brute is feral he will always be your first activation aside from your general.
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James Balmer
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Re: New player... basic question re. Muster rules

Postby James Balmer » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:29 am

No problem, I'm happy to have been able to help.
One thing though, the veteran upgrade does also increase the authority of the drunes by 5, so they should be 21 rather than 16.
It won't matter much at this size game, but the additional authority can come into play in larger games when you're trying to squeeze in a large monster.
The list looks good though and I imagine it would be great fun to play with and against. The only consideration I would make is to place kernuor in your general's host and then have Brugg muster as an individual.
This allows you to playback few tricks, as Jonathon says the feral units (Brugg in this case) normally must activate first, however your general can interrupt the normal activation order and activate himself (and his unit) at the same time. If your general is in the ax-drune unit and kernuor is as well, meaning you can get some invocations off before Brugg goes bowling into an enemy unit.

James
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Geoff
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Re: New player... basic question re. Muster rules

Postby Geoff » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:29 am

Hey, thanks again. There's A LOT to take in at first and there's a fair amount that's easy to overlook, like the Ax Drunes Auth increase instantly affects the Authority for Mustering (and of course it would).

It is observations like these that drive home certain aspects I'd miss reading the book alone - yay for the internet!

Good call on the Brugg reshuffle. I wanted an individual for the first battle anyway (hence my original idea to make Sairen Rose one) but this is better. Having read more on how units can use the Leaders AUTH and FORT for tests, it is WAY better to have her where she's ended up.

There's still a little headscratching about 'Mainstay'/Hearthguard units HAVING to be mustered in EVERY Command though.

1) I got the impression the Host Command could just be made up of a few Nobles alone and NOT also needing another unit of (whatever the effective size) warriors.
2) It's hard to come up with an accurate example being at work now, but - say - I wanted something like 2 Goad Drunes and a Mantichora, would I ALSO have to stick in at least 10 other 'regular' units?

If someone can point me to a section where this becomes clear, or can explain that mustering concept, it would be a massive help.

I understand these basic questions can be arduous for you experienced players (I always imagine lots of facepalming whenever I post any questions). Sorry! :)


---------------------------------------------------------

Re-Revised Encounter Host -

GENERAL: Sairen Rose (Auth 93) (82g)

GENERALS COMMAND: 10x Ax Drune Vets (Auth 21) (150g) with Chains (+20g). Inc (for Free) 3 Command Warriors, Kernuor (Auth 38) (102g) with Blind (5g), Curse of Kernunnos (16g), Blood Sacrifice (20g)

INDIVIDUAL: Brugg the Death Brute (auth 67) (101g) plus Heavy Armour (3g).

TOTAL COST: 496
Jonathon Chester
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Re: New player... basic question re. Muster rules

Postby Jonathon Chester » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:21 pm

I understand these basic questions can be arduous for you experienced players (I always imagine lots of facepalming whenever I post any questions). Sorry! :)


I'd always rather the question is asked! :)

2) It's hard to come up with an accurate example being at work now, but - say - I wanted something like 2 Goad Drunes and a Mantichora, would I ALSO have to stick in at least 10 other 'regular' units?


It would depend on the command for example you could just add the manticora with the goad drunes bound to it under your general/

If no one beats me to it I will try and do a step by step explanation tonight for you :)
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Jonathon Chester
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Re: New player... basic question re. Muster rules

Postby Jonathon Chester » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:37 pm

Right so lets assume you want to expand your list to a 999 gold force and you want to take the mantichora with the goad drones as your first additions.

You’ve got three choices. Either you muster them under the general as you have plenty of authority to spare, muster another commander and mainstay unit or the previous but with Brugg if you have the authority spare.

You would then decide to muster your monster at it’s relevant gold cost and under the commander you want. You then can do one of two choices. You could either muster the goad drones separately under the same commander then bind them during the game or elect to bind them at the list level to your monster. They would then count as a unit for mustering purposes using the monsters authority and ubiquity for the restrictions.

Hope that has explained it :)
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Geoff
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Re: New player... basic question re. Muster rules

Postby Geoff » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:01 pm

You're a star Mr Chester. A very patient star at that.

Cheers for all the advice and guidance!
Jonathon Chester
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Re: New player... basic question re. Muster rules

Postby Jonathon Chester » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:56 am

Darkgeoff wrote:You're a star Mr Chester. A very patient star at that.

Cheers for all the advice and guidance!


No worries, if you ever have a question always best to ask :)
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Rob Lane
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Re: New player... basic question re. Muster rules

Postby Rob Lane » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:24 am

Thanks Jon. Been mega busy this week with Hammerhead!

Enjoy Geoff!

Cheers
Rob
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Geoff
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Re: New player... basic question re. Muster rules

Postby Geoff » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:55 pm

Hey yeah, cheers Rob. We bloody well will!! :)

Have a great day at Hammerhead.
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JediCat
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Re: New player... basic question re. Muster rules

Postby JediCat » Wed May 02, 2018 5:55 am

Darkgeoff wrote:...


PLEASE NOTE: The following contradictory sections have thrown me for a loop all day, but have recently read that 1.1.6 should be IGNORED apparantly - This should have been fixed in the 2.11 update but it is still reading wrong.

1 · 1 · 2 · 2
HIGHER AUTHORITY WARRIORS
A general may muster a warrior with a higher AUTHORITY
than his own in his host, but that warrior can never become
the general, nor a commander. He will become an individual
mustered outside of a command.


1 · 1 · 6
MUSTERING INDIVIDUALS
Individuals can be mustered either within a command (as any
other unit) or outside of a command.
If mustered within a command, an individual's AUTHORITY is
never added to that command's COMMAND AUTHORITY; but
the individual's AUTHORITY must be less than their
commander's AUTHORITY.
When mustered outside of a command they form a command
of their own (of which they are commander), but no other
units can be mustered within it. The only restriction to
mustering an individual outside of a command is that an
individual's AUTHORITY must be lower than their general's
AUTHORITY.


To make sure it hasn't gotten missed, has this been addressed?
"Be as brutal and as sneaky and as nasty with your list as you wish - Darklands is not pink fluffy communist Warhammer" ~Rob Lane, May 17th, 2017
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Rob Lane
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Re: New player... basic question re. Muster rules

Postby Rob Lane » Thu May 03, 2018 9:27 am

It'll be sorted today. Just tidying a few things up and the new musters will be up shortly.

Cheers
Rob

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