Activation Actions - How Many?

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Brightblade
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Activation Actions - How Many?

Postby Brightblade » Sat May 12, 2018 6:33 am

Question..

With a group of Guthwulths on scout orders, when they enter the battlefield from a forest can they perform an Emerge Action, a Howl, and an Ambush Action all in the same activation?

Also, can they perform an Emerge Action, Howl, and Ambush Action from anywhere on the battlefield or is it only from some Kindred Terrain?
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Jonathon Chester
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Re: Activation Actions - How Many?

Postby Jonathon Chester » Sat May 12, 2018 7:03 am

They can ambush if they come on from a board edge or due to their Forester special rule they can Emerge from wooded terrain.

I believe you can merge Action, a Howl, and an Ambush Action all in the same activation but I'm not 100%.
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Brightblade
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Re: Activation Actions - How Many?

Postby Brightblade » Sat May 12, 2018 7:53 am

I will have to read up in the manual and on the muster..

Think I saw it done on one of the YouTube video gameplay with Rob, Ysian vs Anglecynn..
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DrNO172000
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Re: Activation Actions - How Many?

Postby DrNO172000 » Sat May 12, 2018 5:24 pm

"Pack Howl: A Guthwulf unit may perform a Deathly Howl action (which is also a command action) instead of a Roar action at the beginning of one of its activations. Should it do so whilst on the battlefield,
the Guthwulf unit becomes frenzied (if it was not frenzied already), and may select an enemy to Charge (rather than Charge the closest enemy) as its next voluntary action. Additionally, each Guthwulf
warrior in the Guthwulf unit adds 1 attack die to its primary combat weapon as well as its frenzied attack die. A Guthwulf unit may perform a Deathly Howl if it is under FLANK orders and is off the battlefield,
and if it does so before its Flank action, its next flank roll result is increased by 1 to a maximum of 9. A Guthwulf's Deathly Howl may only be performed once per battle, and no unit can be affected by a Howl
of any kind more than once per battle."

The howl must be done first according to how it reads "beginning of one of its activations", so you could howl, emerge or flank, and then ambush no problem. Keep in mind though that it will not get the Frenzied status as it must be on the battlefield for that to happen "Should it do so whilst on the battlefield, the Guthwulf unit becomes frenzied...", done off the battlefield you only get the +1 to the flank roll it seems.

So I would say no you can not emerge or flank, howl, then ambush to take advantage of the Frenzy + bonus die. I may be interpreting it wrong but it seems pretty clear in the way it's written. I'm sure Rob can confirm or not.
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Brightblade
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Re: Activation Actions - How Many?

Postby Brightblade » Sun May 13, 2018 7:38 am

I'm pretty sure I saw it done in the way I've described in the YouTube skirmish video of Ysians vs Anglecynn with a pair of Guthwulfs that's why I was asking if it is a legal activation move or not
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Re: Activation Actions - How Many?

Postby Brightblade » Sun May 13, 2018 9:43 am

At 56:30 into this video the Guthwulfs come into play, and it appears that they do an Emerge action although nothing is rolled to achieve this, they then do a Howl, and then an Ambush, so it looks very much like this is a legal combination of actions within one activation..

Once destroying the force they then carry on off the board..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_5VsAodPAU
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Jonathon Chester
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Re: Activation Actions - How Many?

Postby Jonathon Chester » Sun May 13, 2018 8:16 pm

DrNO172000 wrote:" The howl must be done first according to how it reads "beginning of one of its activations", so you could howl, emerge or flank, and then ambush no problem.


This would be incorrect I believe, as as per the rule it is a Roar action and therefore follows the procedure for this action pg307 for reference to this. You can do a roar as part of a embedded charge action which would allow you to merge, take the ambush test, then howl and charge. You’d probably have to declare you’re using it at the start of its activation though. I’m sure as you said, Rob will clarify soon enough :)
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DrNO172000
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Re: Activation Actions - How Many?

Postby DrNO172000 » Sun May 13, 2018 10:57 pm

Jonathon Chester wrote:
DrNO172000 wrote:" The howl must be done first according to how it reads "beginning of one of its activations", so you could howl, emerge or flank, and then ambush no problem.


This would be incorrect I believe, as as per the rule it is a Roar action and therefore follows the procedure for this action pg307 for reference to this. You can do a roar as part of a embedded charge action which would allow you to merge, take the ambush test, then howl and charge. You’d probably have to declare you’re using it at the start of its activation though. I’m sure as you said, Rob will clarify soon enough :)


It doesn't say it's a Roar action or even performed like a Roar action, just says they can do it instead of a Roar. "A Guthwulf unit may perform a Deathly Howl action (which is also a command action) INSTEAD of a Roar action at the beginning of one of its activations". There is nothing to imply it follows the procedures of a Roar. Regardless it also still says perform at the beginning not declare. If it can be used anytime a Roar action can be used it should be rewritten, something like "A Guthwulf unit may perform a Deathly Howl action (which is also a command action) anytime it could perform a Roar action, instead of performing a Roar action."

As far as the video it is from 2 years ago and the muster has certainly changed since then. For all we know it may have very well changed to only be used at the beginning because they found it was too powerful before.

However, if you can indeed use it embedded in a charge you could actually use it twice in one activation when off the table since it is a command action that does not have a limited use (perhaps it is meant to be "command (1)" though). Example: Howl, Flank with the +1, Ambush, Charge with embedded Howl.

As a side note, it looks like the Roar action might need errata (uncovered it while looking it up stuff regarding this!) so I'll ask that here so when Rob checks in he can clarify Deathly Howl and Roar

On pg 123 under 4.2.3.2.5 "Multiple Command Actions" it states "Some command actions, however, can only be performed once per activation, such as the Roar action"

However, on pg 307 under 6.65 Roar is listed as an effortless action and is not listed as having a single use. Is this an error and should under Roar it instead be "command action (1)"?

My best guess is that Roar is supposed to be a single-use command action and the reason Deathly Howl says instead of is because it uses up the Roar's one time use. Example if you Howl you can not later in the turn also Roar. That's just me guessing though.
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Re: Activation Actions - How Many?

Postby Jonathon Chester » Mon May 14, 2018 6:03 am

Ah apologises I misread that as a roar action, pays to read it twice : :lol:
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Re: Activation Actions - How Many?

Postby Rob Lane » Tue May 15, 2018 10:12 am

Brightblade wrote:Question..

With a group of Guthwulths on scout orders, when they enter the battlefield from a forest can they perform an Emerge Action, a Howl, and an Ambush Action all in the same activation?

Also, can they perform an Emerge Action, Howl, and Ambush Action from anywhere on the battlefield or is it only from some Kindred Terrain?


See p122: IV II III ACTION SEQUENCE.

You can perform one command or effortless action (not both) before a voluntary action; the Emerge action is a command action and the Ambush action is a voluntary action, so no, a Howl (which is also a command action) can't be performed before the Ambush.

Think of it this way. If you Howl before you Emerge, you've given the game away! The enemy know where you are!

Whatever we did in the video is wrong. Could have been before the rules were written!

Cheers
Rob
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Brightblade
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Re: Activation Actions - How Many?

Postby Brightblade » Tue May 15, 2018 11:14 am

Thanks for Clarifying this Rob.

So to Emerge and Ambush with Guthwulfs, you need to bide your time so that the right enemy is closest to your emerge point so the Feral Guthwulfs will attack this, or choose your emerge point wisely and quickly to avoid getting weary.
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DrNO172000
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Re: Activation Actions - How Many?

Postby DrNO172000 » Tue May 15, 2018 12:48 pm

Rob Lane wrote:
Brightblade wrote:Question..

With a group of Guthwulths on scout orders, when they enter the battlefield from a forest can they perform an Emerge Action, a Howl, and an Ambush Action all in the same activation?

Also, can they perform an Emerge Action, Howl, and Ambush Action from anywhere on the battlefield or is it only from some Kindred Terrain?


See p122: IV II III ACTION SEQUENCE.

You can perform one command or effortless action (not both) before a voluntary action; the Emerge action is a command action and the Ambush action is a voluntary action, so no, a Howl (which is also a command action) can't be performed before the Ambush.

Think of it this way. If you Howl before you Emerge, you've given the game away! The enemy know where you are!

Whatever we did in the video is wrong. Could have been before the rules were written!

Cheers
Rob


Looks like we all missed the Action Sequence!

Since you can not do two command actions in a row, how do they take advantage of the bonus to the Flank roll when howling off the battlefield? Do you simply have to wait until the next turn?
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Re: Activation Actions - How Many?

Postby Rob Lane » Fri May 18, 2018 10:05 am

DrNO172000 wrote:Looks like we all missed the Action Sequence!

Since you can not do two command actions in a row, how do they take advantage of the bonus to the Flank roll when howling off the battlefield? Do you simply have to wait until the next turn?


Another bloody good point!

Having thought about it, I'll amend the Howl rules so they're embedded in the FLANK action or SCOUT action - the rules didn't work anyway because of the Action Sequence, so it's a case of the profiles needed changing! I've decided you can Howl and Ambush from Scouting, too.

Keep it up guys, loving all this - making the rules tighter is what this forum's all about!

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Re: Activation Actions - How Many?

Postby Rob Lane » Fri May 18, 2018 10:43 am

Here's what I've changed it to (I've removed individual Howl actions from the warrior rules and put them on a new page):

Pack Howl: A unit with the Howler ability may perform a Howl action (which is also a command action) at the beginning of one of its activations. A unit that only gains the Howler ability via a mustered herald must contain that herald when it performs a Howl action.

When it performs a Howl action the Howling unit gains the following benefits dependent upon their acuity or their Kin:
Elite, Veteran or Wild units - become exulted and Fearless until the end of their next activation
Feral units - become frenzied (if they were not already frenzied), adding 1 frenzy attack die to each Howling warrior's primary combat weapon
Mægenwulf units - all friendly units of the Kin Wulf, Frēawulf, Werwulf, Wælwulf, Banawulf, Guthwulf and Mægenwulf units on the battlefield (now also called Wulf units), including itself, become frenzied (if they were not already frenzied), adding 1 frenzy attack die to each Howling warrior's primary combat weapon.

Charging: The Howling unit - if it is able to - may select an enemy to Charge (rather than Charge the closest enemy) as its next voluntary action.

Flankers: A Howling unit with the Flanker ability may perform an embedded Howl action at the beginning of a Flank action if it is under FLANK orders and is off the battlefield, and if it does so its next flank roll result is increased by 1 to a maximum of 9.
Forester: A Howling unit with the Forester ability may perform an embedded Howl action at the beginning of an Emerge action if it is under SCOUT orders and is off the battlefield.

A Howl action may only be performed once per battle, and no unit can be affected by a Howl action more than once per battle.


That should do it - any issues, let me know.

Cheers
Rob
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Brightblade
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Re: Activation Actions - How Many?

Postby Brightblade » Fri May 18, 2018 1:41 pm

So I guess the Guthwulf's can now Howl, Emerge, and Ambush in one activation...
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Re: Activation Actions - How Many?

Postby JediCat » Tue May 22, 2018 2:08 am

I like it. Less "given the game away" and more "oh god whats that sound from the woods please don't eat me"
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