Swooping/diving and grabbing gigantic units.

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HughB
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Swooping/diving and grabbing gigantic units.

Postby HughB » Sat May 12, 2018 3:11 pm

So first turn a Valhrafn soars. Second turn it either dive grabs and lands or swoop grabs and lands. Its grab target is a meathulk. Its got four grab and soar attacks and it needs 6s so it may as well use all four. If it hits the meat hulk then poor old Druc needs to take a skill test with a +10 (if the valhrafn dive grabs) or he's dead meat(hulk).

Thats a 100mm monster costing the thick end of 400 points probably dying and going down fairly easy.

So there are extenuating circumstances here. The Valhrafn needs to spend a turn in the air circling around getting shot at. The meat hulk could always pass its skill test. The Valhrafn is going to need to land having grabbed the meathulk so there's a reasonable chance he'll eat a charge from some other frothy gribbly. I've picked on the ysians in particular in this situation though because a - they've got some pretty huge 100mm monsters and b - they're AA defences aren't the greatest - they can't shut down flyers like the norse wizards can, they can't fling quite so many bad ass magic missiles and they don't have much in the way of high powered shooting that would really upset a Valhrafn.

Is it just a case of if it happens you've got to suck it up and deal with it (shouldn't have put all of your eggs in one hulking great basket mate) or is there an argument for saying that things that are gigantic can't be soar grabbed maybe (or select gigantic models if not necessarily all gigantic models)?

I have both models in question so I don't have a particular self interest either way. If anything I'm tempted to say that having recently rampaged druc through the guts of a Vras host he could do with a few Achilles heels. When I start play testsing to 2000pts with Norse though I'm going to need a good reason not to put the Valhrafn on the table (friends refusing to play me, bursting into tears when I break out my brian blessed impressions, actively trying to steal and melt the model etc etc).

I am theorying here rather than reporting on games played so ignore the suggestion until I've brought game data to the argument. My question though is, having come to teh play testing threads late, what are the experiences of the more veteran play testers in this situation?
Jonathon Chester
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Re: Swooping/diving and grabbing gigantic units.

Postby Jonathon Chester » Sun May 13, 2018 8:33 am

Just to check that the Valhrafn is a 120mm base? If so it can’t grab the meat hulk as you can only grab 80mm or smaller. The only exceptions with grab is devour, some models can do equal or any smaller bases, and constrictor which can grab anything but has a penalty and bonus depending what they grab.
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HughB
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Re: Swooping/diving and grabbing gigantic units.

Postby HughB » Sun May 13, 2018 6:13 pm

I thought you had me on that (thought I'd made yet another rules derp) but actually it turns out you're only have right on that Jon. The Valhrafn can't dive grab the meat hulk because it would have to be able to soar again afterwards but it very much can swoop and grab units that are up to its own unit strength (top of page 188). So it can swoop and grab the meat hulk and then land afterwards. Swooping grabbing and dive grabbing units can both grab units that are less than their own strength, not just half their own strength. So the 80mm gunhraffn (not being gigantic) can dive grab 60mm models and then soar off again afterwards.
Jonathon Chester
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Re: Swooping/diving and grabbing gigantic units.

Postby Jonathon Chester » Sun May 13, 2018 8:07 pm

Ah so different from generic Grab action then, serves me right not reading the rules fully! That is overly powerful as a failed grab test is an auto kill, this makes the draiggoch a terrifying prospect against low skill 120mm monsters that are at full constitution as you can just go for the instant kill
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HughB
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Re: Swooping/diving and grabbing gigantic units.

Postby HughB » Sun May 13, 2018 8:48 pm

Sorry when I said up to its own strength (it words it this way in the the rulebook too in fairness but then also uses an example to explain itself) I meant up to but not equal to. So yes the draiggoch can do that to 100mm monsters but not 120mm monsters. To be fair I have less of a problem with the draiggoch being able to casually ruin a 100mm monsters day cos frankly the draiggoch costs the thick end of 1200 points and its the gnarliest monster in the game behind only maybe Krull. Not to denigrate Hrudinn or anything cos I think he's great but the Valhrafn is only 540 points.

After todays game though I'm a bit more sanguine about monsters dying pretty easily. It turns out that sometimes monsters just come up against bad match ups. Hruddin is a bad match up for most 100mm monsters. It turns out the Vassilisk is also a bad match up for 100/120mm monsters generally but specifically frenzied ones that are obliged to charge towards them and then to add insult to injury, are obliged to charge towards them over rough terrain. 10D10 gaze damage to the face!?! I was struggling not to wet myself, I''ll not lie :-/ Dead inside of two turns. RIP Mr Meaty (its not all bad though, I recycled him into ((bits of) a new death abhorrent. Waste not want not, Ysians are very ecologically conscious don't you know).

To come back to your point though yeah its an easy way of instagibbing stuff and then whats even more fun is that all of that lovely constitution gets turned into blood tokens. Thats a healthy load of static combat rez to take into the next few turns to help you win combats by enough to break units and run them down.
Jonathon Chester
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Re: Swooping/diving and grabbing gigantic units.

Postby Jonathon Chester » Mon May 14, 2018 6:00 am

Was thinking along the line of the Draiggoch having skill 40's being able to just pick up anything and ruin 120mm monsters days as most are >skill 30's. Think we need to take into account Rob has always said, this is a bloody game things die fast and hard.
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Rob Lane
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Re: Swooping/diving and grabbing gigantic units.

Postby Rob Lane » Tue May 15, 2018 10:26 am

Sorry chaps, that's a typo on p188. It should say "up to half his own strength". The Grab action is half strength in any case, so it's covered by that rule.

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Jonathon Chester
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Re: Swooping/diving and grabbing gigantic units.

Postby Jonathon Chester » Tue May 15, 2018 10:48 am

Thank you for clearing that up Rob
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Rob Lane
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Re: Swooping/diving and grabbing gigantic units.

Postby Rob Lane » Tue May 15, 2018 10:50 am

Whilst I like the idea of Dragons lifting Meat Hulks, I don't think they'd really get off the ground to be honest... especially with that appendage ;o)

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Jonathon Chester
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Re: Swooping/diving and grabbing gigantic units.

Postby Jonathon Chester » Tue May 15, 2018 10:51 am

It’s a pretty big anchor...
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HughB
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Re: Swooping/diving and grabbing gigantic units.

Postby HughB » Wed May 16, 2018 12:29 am

Thanks for the clarification Rob. So just checking and not trying to be a pain in the face (honest) but you're saying that units can't swoop and grab unless its units that are half their strength (which is consistent with the standard grab rule). Does the rule for diving and grabbing still stand though? Can diving and grabbing units still grab units that are less than their strength rather than half their strength (6.16.6.1 top of page 183)?

The mitigating factor with this rule I suppose is that to be able to get a dive and grab off (which I didn't think of really until Jon pulled me up on it) a unit has to be able to soar again afterwards. So straight away that stops gigantic stuff diving and grabbing other units because they aren't able to soar again afterwards. If the rule does stand though it allows 80mm monsters that aren't gigantic to dive down and grab 60mm monstrous infantry. Its powerful but its not killing meathulk powerful (and gunhrafns are ace, can I have my two alts for a full unit of three now please please please?) ;-)
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Rob Lane
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Re: Swooping/diving and grabbing gigantic units.

Postby Rob Lane » Fri May 18, 2018 9:49 am

I'll answer you with a question.

Which is better for the game - Dive and Grab anything up to the Diver's strength, or Dive and Grab anything up to half the Diver's strength?

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Jonathon Chester
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Re: Swooping/diving and grabbing gigantic units.

Postby Jonathon Chester » Fri May 18, 2018 10:02 am

My answer would be the latter. Grab is powerful enough as is as I played a game yesterday in that my Draigllai killed a Sronax Tain and two tarvax with grabs.
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Brightblade
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Re: Swooping/diving and grabbing gigantic units.

Postby Brightblade » Fri May 18, 2018 1:46 pm

I would agree with Jonathon, thinking about it logically, I write Computer Coding as part of my job.. ;-), Logic is my thing...

Logically, it wouldn't make sense for a flying creature to Dive and grab something that is essentially as big as itself, and then Soar back up into the sky to drop it, momentum from the Dive would only go so far, potentially the flying unit would be able to Dive, Grab and Throw the creature the same size, but I doubt it would be able to Soar...
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HughB
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Re: Swooping/diving and grabbing gigantic units.

Postby HughB » Fri May 18, 2018 9:20 pm

Well when it says up to it actually means less than (so 80mm bases can't lift 80mm bases but then can lift 60mm bases).

Looking at the muster sheets though - a gunnhrafn (80mm birdman) costs about 15 points more than a sronax tain (60mm character model). If he were able to soar and grab any model that is less strength than him, the gunnhrafn would stand a pretty decent chance of laying waste to the tain for no real risk.

It gets bit worse looking at the hrafnmenn. A Hrafnmann (60mm bird man) actually costs slightly less than a tarvax (50mm model) but with the rules as stated could soar and grab the tarvax fairly easily.

The counter point to just looking at points cost is that the hrafnmann could also dive and grab a seer drune who's skill is 37 and costs 100 points or there about. So thats a pretty decent chance at a dead wizard for half the cost of the spell slinger. Easier for the wizard to hide in woods than the frenzied tarvax though eh.

In fairness though I think game balance would suggest that dive grabbing should probably follow that same rules as standard grabbing. Pains me to have to admit that but there you go :)
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DrNO172000
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Re: Swooping/diving and grabbing gigantic units.

Postby DrNO172000 » Mon May 21, 2018 5:39 pm

HughB wrote:Well when it says up to it actually means less than (so 80mm bases can't lift 80mm bases but then can lift 60mm bases).

Looking at the muster sheets though - a gunnhrafn (80mm birdman) costs about 15 points more than a sronax tain (60mm character model). If he were able to soar and grab any model that is less strength than him, the gunnhrafn would stand a pretty decent chance of laying waste to the tain for no real risk.

It gets bit worse looking at the hrafnmenn. A Hrafnmann (60mm bird man) actually costs slightly less than a tarvax (50mm model) but with the rules as stated could soar and grab the tarvax fairly easily.

The counter point to just looking at points cost is that the hrafnmann could also dive and grab a seer drune who's skill is 37 and costs 100 points or there about. So thats a pretty decent chance at a dead wizard for half the cost of the spell slinger. Easier for the wizard to hide in woods than the frenzied tarvax though eh.

In fairness though I think game balance would suggest that dive grabbing should probably follow that same rules as standard grabbing. Pains me to have to admit that but there you go :)


If it makes you feel better Hugh you can still grab Euraylia and take to the skies with her lifeless body. Be really hard with her enormous skill but it's possible...
Jonathon Chester
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Re: Swooping/diving and grabbing gigantic units.

Postby Jonathon Chester » Mon May 21, 2018 9:25 pm

DrNO172000 wrote:
HughB wrote:Well when it says up to it actually means less than (so 80mm bases can't lift 80mm bases but then can lift 60mm bases).

Looking at the muster sheets though - a gunnhrafn (80mm birdman) costs about 15 points more than a sronax tain (60mm character model). If he were able to soar and grab any model that is less strength than him, the gunnhrafn would stand a pretty decent chance of laying waste to the tain for no real risk.

It gets bit worse looking at the hrafnmenn. A Hrafnmann (60mm bird man) actually costs slightly less than a tarvax (50mm model) but with the rules as stated could soar and grab the tarvax fairly easily.

The counter point to just looking at points cost is that the hrafnmann could also dive and grab a seer drune who's skill is 37 and costs 100 points or there about. So thats a pretty decent chance at a dead wizard for half the cost of the spell slinger. Easier for the wizard to hide in woods than the frenzied tarvax though eh.

In fairness though I think game balance would suggest that dive grabbing should probably follow that same rules as standard grabbing. Pains me to have to admit that but there you go :)


If it makes you feel better Hugh you can still grab Euraylia and take to the skies with her lifeless body. Be really hard with her enormous skill but it's possible...


Multiple shrieks followed by a draigllai grabbing her sounds very tasty!
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