Initiative and Reform questions

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Geoff
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Initiative and Reform questions

Postby Geoff » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:12 am

Hi, can someone clarify the following, thanks.

REFORM ACTION

A Reform Action is either Effortless or Vigorous, simply determined by the players choice to make it so? True/False?

An effortless Reform Action performed three times in one hour could move a single unit 6" in addition to any other action that unit wishes to make. True/False?

An effortless Reform Action allows a unit to move 2" through any terrain, regardless of that terrains difficult or slow moving status, for (essentially) 'free'. True/False?

INITIATIVE

Gaining the initiative is different from possessing the initiative, right? So, even though the initiative passes from player to player during the course of an hour only one player is considered to have gained the initiative during that time - the one who succeeded in gaining the initiative at the start of the hour. True/False?
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Icchan
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Re: Initiative and Reform questions

Postby Icchan » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:45 pm

As per my understanding of reform move, you have to end your movement within join distance of another warrior within the unit, this would apply also to the first moving warrior. So it would allow the warriors lagging behind catch up, but it's pretty hard to move forward, especially if you're reforming to a tight formation.
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Geoff
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Re: Initiative and Reform questions

Postby Geoff » Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:04 pm

Icchan wrote:As per my understanding of reform move, you have to end your movement within join distance of another warrior within the unit, this would apply also to the first moving warrior. So it would allow the warriors lagging behind catch up, but it's pretty hard to move forward, especially if you're reforming to a tight formation.


Indeed, but this wouldn't stop exploiting (if it is an exploit) the effortless actions to move up to 6" through any terrain before activating, which would kinda suck.
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DrNO172000
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Re: Initiative and Reform questions

Postby DrNO172000 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:50 am

I'm not sure a Reform is effortless or not, there is a discrepancy in the rules on this one.

Pg 141 Reform is listed under Vigorous actions and Wearying actions. Under the actual action itself, it does list it as an effortless action though. So that will need errata.

Based on how the action is written though I'm guessing it can be effortless or vigorous. So assuming that how do you determine if it is effortless or vigorous?

I don't think it's a choice and I don't think the way it's written implies that. The wording is

"Reform Actions are unusual in that they can be performed either as a vigorous action or effortless action"

The use of can here doesn't necessarily imply a permission of choice (of course it could thanks to English being imprecise) but seems to be stating it is possible for the action to be either. If we look at the three different reforms it seems to back up the idea that the type of reform determines whether it is vigorous or not. For example, Attack Reforming states that it must be performed as an Attack Move which is a vigorous action. Where as Loose Reforming specifically states it is an effortless action.

So based on this, my interpretation is that it is likely vigorous unless specifically stated to be effortless. The problem is of course 6.9.2.1 Reform Move does specifically state either effortless or vigorous like the other two, still I'm arguing it is meant to be vigorous. Rob I think is going to have to clarify this one though as it is definitely not clear.

As far as it being slowed by terrain, well it is a ground move so yes it can be reduced by terrain or anything else that causes a difficult or slowed move. Just only up to 1" as you can't reduce remaining movement below 1".

Another thing to keep in mind is that according to the action sequence (see pg 122 bottom left corner) you cannot perform three effortless actions in a row, so even if it is effortless to do the normal Reform Move you still have to perform an action after the first one, which depending on your orders could very well end your turn. Also, each window that allows for effortless is the same window that allows for a command order. So if you choose to do an effortless reaction you can not do a command action during that window.

For Gaining the Initiative, passing the initiative also counts as gaining. Pg 126 /4.2.6 Passing the Initiative

"Once the initiative has been passed, the opposing general has now gained the initiative..."
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Geoff
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Re: Initiative and Reform questions

Postby Geoff » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:23 am

Thank you for another thorough reply Doc.

I'll wait for Rob to clarify the ins-and-out of the Reform move, because as it stands it could well be used to move a unit up to 6" before it takes its own vigorous or wearying action for the hour. If this is acceptable and intentional, fine, but I'd like to know.

Also knowing what makes it effortless or vigorous is important.

The initiative answer... now this seems to make a rule about initiative re-rolls hazy. Don't the rules say initiative re-rolls can be made by the general who did NOT GAIN the initiative on the previous hour. If, during standard play, BOTH generals ALWAYS gain the inititiative at some point during EVERY battle hour, when would this apply?

Hopefully the questions I'm posting at the moment are implying an eagerness to learn the game and not exhibiting a fools' grasp of basic rulesets... please bear with me in either case. :)
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Re: Initiative and Reform questions

Postby Arthur » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:12 am

I haven't got my rulebook here but there is a block of text defining under what circumstances the reform action is effortless and it's pretty restricted. I think a shieldwall unit could do reform twice but thats about it.
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Re: Initiative and Reform questions

Postby Jonathon Chester » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:25 pm

Darkgeoff wrote:
Hopefully the questions I'm posting at the moment are implying an eagerness to learn the game and not exhibiting a fools' grasp of basic rulesets... please bear with me in either case. :)


It is always better to ask questions than not!

In regards to the re roll every hour (turn) is started with one player having the initiative. Say hour 1 player A got inititative, in hour 2 player B gets the re roll. If Player B is successful they gain the initiative and Player A would get the re roll hour 3.

However if player B busts (rolls higher than their authority on the first roll) or fails to beat player A then on hour 3 they would get the re roll again.
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Geoff
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Re: Initiative and Reform questions

Postby Geoff » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:31 pm

Jonathon Chester wrote:
In regards to the re roll every hour (turn) is started with one player having the initiative. Say hour 1 player A got inititative, in hour 2 player B gets the re roll. If Player B is successful they gain the initiative and Player A would get the re roll hour 3.

However if player B busts (rolls higher than their authority on the first roll) or fails to beat player A then on hour 3 they would get the re roll again.


Great, thanks for clearing that up Jonathon. The re-roll does only depend on who won the first initiative roll at the start, as it were, at the very start of the previous hour, before initiative is passed, or lost, to the opponent.
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DrNO172000
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Re: Initiative and Reform questions

Postby DrNO172000 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:35 pm

Darkgeoff wrote:
The initiative answer... now this seems to make a rule about initiative re-rolls hazy. Don't the rules say initiative re-rolls can be made by the general who did NOT GAIN the initiative on the previous hour. If, during standard play, BOTH generals ALWAYS gain the inititiative at some point during EVERY battle hour, when would this apply?



Ack you are right, that does cause some hazy keyword happenings. I'm thinking that the intent is likely whoever lost the initiative roll in the previous hour gets the reroll.

Edit: Jonathon beat me to it.
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Rob Lane
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Re: Initiative and Reform questions

Postby Rob Lane » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:48 am

I'll answer all of the relevant points from everybody here...

Darkgeoff wrote:Hi, can someone clarify the following, thanks.

REFORM ACTION

A Reform Action is either Effortless or Vigorous, simply determined by the players choice to make it so? True/False?


Yes and no. It's vigorous if you're performing the Reform action as a voluntary action (i.e., you're not performing it as an effortless action).

Darkgeoff wrote:An effortless Reform Action performed three times in one hour could move a single unit 6" in addition to any other action that unit wishes to make. True/False?


False. An effortless Reform action can only be voluntarily performed if a unit is breaking their Shieldwall or Skirmish formation. The Attack Move Reform is an embedded action, you see.

Units may perform a linked Reform action after many other actions, please note.

Darkgeoff wrote:An effortless Reform Action allows a unit to move 2" through any terrain, regardless of that terrains difficult or slow moving status, for (essentially) 'free'. True/False?


False for units in tight or loose form. A reform is still a Move - see 6.9.2.1. There is nothing that states that the Reform Move ignores rough terrain. Units in wide form ignore difficult moves anyway. Slow moves usually affect everything - that's for things like invocations, etc.

Darkgeoff wrote:INITIATIVE

Gaining the initiative is different from possessing the initiative, right? So, even though the initiative passes from player to player during the course of an hour only one player is considered to have gained the initiative during that time - the one who succeeded in gaining the initiative at the start of the hour. True/False?


Correct.

DrNO172000 wrote:I'm not sure a Reform is effortless or not, there is a discrepancy in the rules on this one.

Pg 141 Reform is listed under Vigorous actions and Wearying actions. Under the actual action itself, it does list it as an effortless action though. So that will need errata.

Based on how the action is written though I'm guessing it can be effortless or vigorous. So assuming that how do you determine if it is effortless or vigorous?


Yeah, it's a bit unclear. For the record, you can only perform voluntary effortless Reform actions to break a Shieldwall or a Skirmish formation. Other than that it's a voluntary action or it's a linked action.

What I'll do is change the text slightly in the first paragraph on p152 to state the restrictions on effortless Reform actions.

DrNO172000 wrote:I don't think it's a choice and I don't think the way it's written implies that. The wording is

"Reform Actions are unusual in that they can be performed either as a vigorous action or effortless action"

The use of can here doesn't necessarily imply a permission of choice (of course it could thanks to English being imprecise) but seems to be stating it is possible for the action to be either.


That's exactly right.

DrNO172000 wrote:If we look at the three different reforms it seems to back up the idea that the type of reform determines whether it is vigorous or not. For example, Attack Reforming states that it must be performed as an Attack Move which is a vigorous action. Where as Loose Reforming specifically states it is an effortless action.

So based on this, my interpretation is that it is likely vigorous unless specifically stated to be effortless.


That's correct.

DrNO172000 wrote:The problem is of course 6.9.2.1 Reform Move does specifically state either effortless or vigorous like the other two, still I'm arguing it is meant to be vigorous. Rob I think is going to have to clarify this one though as it is definitely not clear.


Yeah, you're absolutely right here. It is meant to be vigorous; only effortless through breaking Shieldwall / Skirmish formation.

DrNO172000 wrote:As far as it being slowed by terrain, well it is a ground move so yes it can be reduced by terrain or anything else that causes a difficult or slowed move. Just only up to 1" as you can't reduce remaining movement below 1".

Another thing to keep in mind is that according to the action sequence (see pg 122 bottom left corner) you cannot perform three effortless actions in a row, so even if it is effortless to do the normal Reform Move you still have to perform an action after the first one, which depending on your orders could very well end your turn. Also, each window that allows for effortless is the same window that allows for a command order. So if you choose to do an effortless reaction you can not do a command action during that window.


Indeed so.

Darkgeoff wrote:Thank you for another thorough reply Doc.

I'll wait for Rob to clarify the ins-and-out of the Reform move, because as it stands it could well be used to move a unit up to 6" before it takes its own vigorous or wearying action for the hour. If this is acceptable and intentional, fine, but I'd like to know.


See above dude.

Darkgeoff wrote:The initiative answer... now this seems to make a rule about initiative re-rolls hazy. Don't the rules say initiative re-rolls can be made by the general who did NOT GAIN the initiative on the previous hour. If, during standard play, BOTH generals ALWAYS gain the inititiative at some point during EVERY battle hour, when would this apply?


What Jon said.

Darkgeoff wrote:Hopefully the questions I'm posting at the moment are implying an eagerness to learn the game and not exhibiting a fools' grasp of basic rulesets... please bear with me in either case. :)


Mate, always ask! I don't get it right all the time - it's up to you guys to really thrash it to death so I can make it 100% watertight!

Cheers
Rob
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Geoff
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Re: Initiative and Reform questions

Postby Geoff » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:02 am

Thanks for all the clarifications Rob!
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Rob Lane
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Re: Initiative and Reform questions

Postby Rob Lane » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:10 am

You're welcome. It is - quite literally - my job... well, part of it!

Cheers
Rob
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DrNO172000
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Re: Initiative and Reform questions

Postby DrNO172000 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:44 pm

Yay I got it right! Hahaha, sometimes through the haze in my brain I'm able to interpret things as written!
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Rob Lane
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Re: Initiative and Reform questions

Postby Rob Lane » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:41 am

I have found that you can usually interpret what I mean if I don't write stuff properly ;o)

Cheers
Rob

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