Engagement query

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Geoff
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Engagement query

Postby Geoff » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:26 pm

OK... I have Annik, the general joined to a unit of Ax-Drunes. Brugg wishes to charge Annik, and would be a very happy brute if he can cause damage to the unit inbetween them on the way.

so the question is... may Brugg target out Annik individually, or because she is joined with the drune unit MUST he target the unit as a whole - therefore hitting drune (!) first and stopping his engage move at that point?

Image

This also brings up a similar but wider question that's been on my mind - must one always attack a unit as whole, or can any individual warrior/model within that unit be the subject of ones attack, even if they are not a joined or bound unit?

If any answers can provide a simple answer to the above that would be great, but if my question I haven't grasped any other fundamental issues, further elucidation would be most appreciated. Love that I got a big word in like that :)

also, don't ask why Brugg is attacking Annik, tis just a squabble over who'se making sunday lunch...


Cheers!
Jonathon Chester
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Re: Engagement query

Postby Jonathon Chester » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:08 pm

Off hand he would have to charge the unit as a whole in this situation. If he had a trample attack he could do a trample action to move through to get closer to Annik.

With regards to a allocation of attacks you can single out a character if they are in range of the attack weapon. Just any extra damage would be lost if you killed them out right.
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Brightblade
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Re: Engagement query

Postby Brightblade » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:09 pm

I could be wrong on this but my understanding is that a Charge must be done in a Straight Line and that the charge must be greater than the Charging Units Pace, but less than it's Pace x 2

So looking at your battlefield, Bruk would be able to Move and Engage Annik by running (You don't have to run in a Straight Line), Twice Bruk's Pace (If Pace x 2 is enough to reach), but this would be a Move / Run and Engage, so no Charge Modifiers would apply..

The units like in a Loose formation, not Base to Base, so depending in Bruk's attack distance of his weapon if he moved staright forward and engaged the first unit he may only be able to engage the one unit and as such that engaged unit would take all the damage..

Of course I'm still learning myself, so I may be completely off the mark here..

I'm sure some Battle Hardened Veterans with much more Knowledge than me can tell you and me if I'm talking gibberish..
Devlin Brightblade, Lord of Saxon Hammerwich, Slayer of Trolls, Tamer of Manticores, Petter of Flint Flang the Kill Thing from the Infernal Pits..

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Jonathon Chester
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Re: Engagement query

Postby Jonathon Chester » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:27 pm

Brightblade wrote:I could be wrong on this but my understanding is that a Charge must be done in a Straight Line and that the charge must be greater than the Charging Units Pace, but less than it's Pace x 2

So looking at your battlefield, Bruk would be able to Move and Engage Annik by running (You don't have to run in a Straight Line), Twice Bruk's Pace (If Pace x 2 is enough to reach), but this would be a Move / Run and Engage, so no Charge Modifiers would apply.


With the first paragraph you’re both correct and slightly incorrect. It must be done in a straight line but a charge does not have to be more than the pace just more than your attack distance , you’re already engaged at this point so it would be an attack move, you nobly need to go more than your pace to get the swift charge benefits.

In the case of bruk he is also feral so must be on attack orders and must charge the closest unit in line of sight so couldn’t move around on a move order. However the non feral units could do this
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Geoff
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Re: Engagement query

Postby Geoff » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:56 pm

Thanks for your replies chaps.

Jonathon - I don't understand why he would not be able to reach Annik in this situation - why not? What pertinent facts are in play here?

Brightblade - " the charge must be greater than the Charging Units Pace, but less than it's Pace x 2" - where is this mentioned? In fact, I can't see any reference to the range of a charge and only assumed it would be swift (pace x2). The Charge Action page doesn't tell much other than it's a charge. The rulebook does baffle me. I'd really like to be pointed to this, cheers.

In the meantime... this happened. Prepare for a decimation of the rules guys...

So Brugg decided to charge Annik and used the MOVING THROUGH rules to get to her - displacing the ax-drunes in his path (who became confused but didn't bother reflex attacking as Brugg has no Blood Tokens to lose yet). Annik is fearless, so no Valour Test needed and she Braced for the attack....

Brugg whacked her for 23 points of pain, could not Breakthrough (which is referred to as an Action but appears in the book as a Reaction only) as he'd reached the limit of his Move Rate. Having only a single means of attack that was him over. He Braced for Anniks turn to strike him...

Image

note - It looks like i'm playing a bit free and easy with Bruggs trajectory here, but there was a lot of moving models about as I figured out what to do. Let's all just say , for the sake of the questions, his charge was in a straight line, ok? :)
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Geoff
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Re: Engagement query

Postby Geoff » Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:00 pm

In the case of bruk he is also feral so must be on attack orders and must charge the closest unit in line of sight so couldn’t move around on a move order. However the non feral units could do this


Yes, I realised this after I'd set my sights on Annik but wanted to carry on with the scenario to demonstrate the query about targeting individuals in a unit and how to handle moving through the rest of unit to reach that target.
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Brightblade
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Re: Engagement query

Postby Brightblade » Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:11 pm

Geoff, I was getting my Charge confused with my Swift Charge which is greater than pace but less than pace x2.

And I believe it's only the swift charge that offers the charge modifiers.. but again I could be wrong..and often am..lol
Devlin Brightblade, Lord of Saxon Hammerwich, Slayer of Trolls, Tamer of Manticores, Petter of Flint Flang the Kill Thing from the Infernal Pits..

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Geoff
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Re: Engagement query

Postby Geoff » Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:46 pm

Brightblade wrote:Geoff, I was getting my Charge confused with my Swift Charge which is greater than pace but less than pace x2.

And I believe it's only the swift charge that offers the charge modifiers.. but again I could be wrong..and often am..lol


No mate, you're probably right but I can't find it in the book where is states Swift Charge is greater than pace but less than pace x2 - I'd love to know as it would probably reveal other info I'm missing.

And as far as I can see a Swift Charge grants a +1 to the Parry Roll (in addition to the -1 charge Charge Strike mod), again, unless I'm overlooking something.
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Brightblade
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Re: Engagement query

Postby Brightblade » Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:54 pm

Darkgeoff wrote:
And as far as I can see a Swift Charge grants a +1 to the Parry Roll (in addition to the -1 charge Charge Strike mod), again, unless I'm overlooking something.


I'm pretty certain it's in the rulebook somewhere but can't remember whereabouts, probably somewhere obscure.. lol

Modifiers are correct though.. and don't forget about Bulk Chargers, find this on the musters, bulk chargers get extra attack dice..
Devlin Brightblade, Lord of Saxon Hammerwich, Slayer of Trolls, Tamer of Manticores, Petter of Flint Flang the Kill Thing from the Infernal Pits..

As you slide down the Bannister of Life, may the Splinters be kind...
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Geoff
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Re: Engagement query

Postby Geoff » Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:04 pm

Modifiers are correct though.. and don't forget about Bulk Chargers, find this on the musters, bulk chargers get extra attack dice..


Yep, got that thanks - page 48. Those early pages are easily missed after you start reading the Actions chapter!
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DrNO172000
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Re: Engagement query

Postby DrNO172000 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:33 pm

Ok a couple of things here,

First, if Annik has joined a unit she is no longer a separate unit. She, in fact, becomes the unit's leader.

Pg 293/6.58.4 Joined Units

"Joined units, however, they are formed, activate as a single unit and perform actions and reactions as if they are a single unit..."

6.58.4.1 Leader

"If the Joining noble is the general or replacement general, he is immediately considered to be the Joined unit's leader."

Second, you engage units, not individuals.

pg 157/6.10.3 Engaged Unit

"The Engaging unit's player must first identify the enemy unit it wishes to Engage (the Engaged unit). "

Now let's look at Moving Through, pg 108/3.8.5.1 states

"Warriors performing a ground move may voluntarily Move Through intervening units..."

The key words here are intervening units, it does not state intervening warriors. As you are charging the Ax-Drune unit it is not an intervening unit and so you can not Move Through its warriors based on the wording here unless performing a Trample of course (which Brugg, cannot do as he has no trample weapon I'm pretty sure).

Beyond this you may never voluntarily become disengaged once engaged, so even moving past guys can be tricky.

Let's say my reading of the rules is wrong though and you can. There are a couple of things you still would have done incorrectly.

One you only displace warrior's you actually end up on as per pg 109/3.8.5.3.1 Displacing Warriors

"A Moving Through warrior's base must not lie upon any other warrior's base when it ends its move through. If it would do so, the Moving Through warrior must Displace the Moved Through warriors in the way."

So you only Displace those who bases are in the way of being able to place the Moving Through warrior's base.

Reflex Attack reactions must be performed, the Ax-Drunes would have to take them. Pg 109/3.8.5.4 "...-the enemy warrior must perform a Reflex Attack Action"

It is never a choice to do a Reflex Attack reaction, and they can still do damage regardless of whether or not Brugg has blood tokens. Also they are effortless actions anyway so no need to worry about becoming weary due to it.

For Valour test, Annik's fearless is useless here. Since Annik is now a part of the unit and the majority of warriors in the unit are not fearless the unit itself is not fearless. So because it is the unit being charged (as I noted earlier), not Annik, a Valour test must be made.

pg 47/2.4.4.2

"A Mixed unit, Bound unit, mounted warrior or war engine has the Fearless trait if the majority of the warriors within the Mixed unit have it..."

As for the query on Swift Chargers, you must move greater than your pace in order to get the Swift Engage token as per pg 163/6.10.6.6

"If the majority of warriors within a Direct Engaging unit are Swift Engaging warriors (determined by the strength of those warriors), place a swift engage token next to the Direct Engaging unit..."

Pg 158/6.10.5.1.2 has the definition of Swift Enganging Unit

"An Engaging unit containing a majority of warriors that have Engage Moved further than their Pace (or further than half their Flight), is called a Swift Engaging unit..."

Keep in mind Impact Strikes from Bulk Charger also require you to have Swift Engaged.

Lastly as to your question of can you attack Annik or do you have to attack units as a whole, yes you can attack Annik if you have a weapon within attack range of her. As an attack action is a different action than an engagement action. In fact, Brugg could split his dice amongst the Ax-Drunes and Annik if he had both of them in attack range of a weapon.

Pg 198/6.20.3.2 Determine Attacked Warriors

"When an Attack action is begun, any enemy warrior engaged with or beset by the Attackers could become an Attacked warrior"

6.20.3.1.2 Splitting Attacks

"Warriors with multiple attack dice, such as a powerful Warlord or a mighty Monstrous Beast, may divide their attack dice - and thus Attacks - against differing class and Skill Attacked warriors as they wish."

So the TLDR; of this is no you can not move through to attack Annik as she is part of the unit and you are engaging the unit. If she was in front and you could engage her then yes you could attack her specifically as she is of a different class and skill.
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Geoff
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Re: Engagement query

Postby Geoff » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:07 am

That's brilliant, thank you muchly for such a thorough and detailed reply - you not only took stock of the situation as described/shown but your comments also gave a broader understanding of some connected rules.

I didn't perform the reflex action as I read the attack resolution only affected blood token removal. I don't have the book with me now so I'll re-read that section.

If Annik had remained UNJOINED, I guess Brugg could MOVE THROUGH the Ax-Drunes.

Good to see clarification about the units vs individuals as targets.

Thanks for taking the time to write all that up. :)
Jonathon Chester
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Re: Engagement query

Postby Jonathon Chester » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:28 pm

Once I get my rulebook back from a friend who is learning I will be more able to give fuller answers :lol:

Worth noting however I believe Brugg could bot move through as he is feral thus must charge the unit at the front. Without the book to hand I can't quote but will do ASAP unless someone beats me to it.

However a Feral monster with a Trample weapon could use a Trample Action instead to get to her so that opens some options to you with bigger beasties.
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DrNO172000
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Re: Engagement query

Postby DrNO172000 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:29 pm

@Darkgeoff

No problem it was my pleasure.

You are right though about blood token removal being the only portion of the Attack results step being applied. However, remember that the damage step occurs before the results step, so you still cause damage from Reflex Attacks.

@Jonathon

That is right, I had forgotten about that. It's pg 157/6.20.3.2 under the Acuity and Heart heading.

"An Engaging unit that is Levy, Feral, Mindless, or that is Frenzied (also called a Closest Engaging unit), must always engage the nearest enemy unit it's leader can see that is not already in combat (unless there is no other choice)."
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Geoff
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Re: Engagement query

Postby Geoff » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:42 pm

Ahh, that's me assuming damage was the result of an attack, hence being part of the Attack results, hence not being applied!

The choice, or not as in the case here, as to whom an available target would be is one I already knew, had read but forgotten about so eager was I to attack Annik!

Really appreciate all the great responses to the topic here and it's truly valuable info.
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Re: Engagement query

Postby Rob Lane » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:31 pm

Well done guys, looks like you got there in the end...

Cheers
Rob

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