Throwing my toys out of the pram....

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Brightblade
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Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Brightblade » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:24 pm

I did write a really long piece about how I believed that Fenzied units were so imbalanced because in my latest game a unit of abhorrent wiped the floor with over 900 points of Fomoraic units..

But then deleted it all as I decided that this game had driven me to throw my toys out of the pram... as such how frustrating it is...

But being a newbie to wargaming I just need to learn more...

Hissy fit over... until the next time.. :roll:
Devlin Brightblade, Lord of Saxon Hammerwich, Slayer of Trolls, Tamer of Manticores, Petter of Flint Flang the Kill Thing from the Infernal Pits..

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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Rob Lane » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:51 am

Erm... okay... it seems you might have been playing Breakthrough wrong though - I don't really know, but by the questions Grizzle is asking, it may be why...

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Grizzle
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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Grizzle » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:29 pm

Rob Lane wrote:Erm... okay... it seems you might have been playing Breakthrough wrong though - I don't really know, but by the questions Grizzle is asking, it may be why...

Cheers
Rob


Yeah, that's partly why I was asking.

Although, in Bright's examples in the game we played, he actually charged multiple units one after another into the Abhorrents and then due to being also engaged with a moraine beast (I'm not sure we played this right either) I wasn't giving chase to his damaged units.

So he was charging, attacking and then I was attacking back as a reaction (or attack moving any unengaged warriors) and then winning the combats because of the 2 for every 10 blood due to frenzy, usually causing his units to lose the fight & then panic due to the presence of the defeated tokens.

With regards to the breakthrough though, I did perform a counter charge against his cugacx, earlier in the game, in which case I assume I would have counted as charging so could I have performed a breakthrough then into the beast? < this was the only time the breakthrough reaction appeared during the game.

I've not got the book in front of me though.

However, that one unit basically killed a ton of his through attack reactions, it may have been because of where the warriors were, though.

Would it be worth me drawing up a bit of a superficial paint diagram, from memory?
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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Rob Lane » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:40 pm

Grizzle wrote:
Rob Lane wrote:Erm... okay... it seems you might have been playing Breakthrough wrong though - I don't really know, but by the questions Grizzle is asking, it may be why...

Cheers
Rob


Yeah, that's partly why I was asking.

Although, in Bright's examples in the game we played, he actually charged multiple units one after another into the Abhorrents and then due to being also engaged with a moraine beast (I'm not sure we played this right either) I wasn't giving chase to his damaged units.

So he was charging, attacking and then I was attacking back as a reaction (or attack moving any unengaged warriors) and then winning the combats because of the 2 for every 10 blood due to frenzy, usually causing his units to lose the fight & then panic due to the presence of the defeated tokens.

With regards to the breakthrough though, I did perform a counter charge against his cugacx, earlier in the game, in which case I assume I would have counted as charging so could I have performed a breakthrough then into the beast? < this was the only time the breakthrough reaction appeared during the game.


Yes.

Grizzle wrote:I've not got the book in front of me though.

However, that one unit basically killed a ton of his through attack reactions, it may have been because of where the warriors were, though.

Would it be worth me drawing up a bit of a superficial paint diagram, from memory?


To what end?

Without trying to be an arse, I am assuming (possibly incorrectly!) that you and Brightblade are trying to prove, here, that frenzied units are broken and I need to change them. I'll be honest - I've spent years telling people frenzied units are worth taking; most people who play Darklands don't take frenzied units because they are so easily negated.

On that note, I do hope you're all remembering that frenzied units Charge the nearest unit to them...

Cheers
Rob
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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Grizzle » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:53 pm

Basically to the end of working out better strategies and that we played our combats and results correctly.

I think if we introduced more tactical fidelity into our games (such as retreating, or is it withdrawing? as a reaction) I would imagine frenzied units become less threatening if they are led around by the nose. Not to mention being led into traps.

I think in the last two games we played, Ysians vs Anglecynn and then Formoraic, I suspect some of the issues were rules misunderstandings; I think I attack moved after a charge to get more warriors in, which I think is incorrect, in the anglecynn game( which would certainly have reduced the damage I did) and in this most recent one I think it was the odd circumstances and the fact that Bright had several attack-order rhino men lined up one after another that had to charge in against my abs, but because I only had one in contact with the moraine beast (due to the angle of my breakthrough after destroying the cugacx) it meant my attack reactions & moves, due to not becoming weary, & the terrain placement, resulted in his units only being able to get a few warriors in at a time.

Although the bigger rhino's (Sronox) all got in.

I'm not saying I think frenzied is imbalanced, I'm more clarifying we played it correctly as I prefer to have it be fair to both myself and my opponent.

PS: Yep, we were doing frenzied as the nearest enemy unit, just to be clear. Thanks again for your patience.
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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Grizzle » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:59 pm

Oh, by the way in the invocation "wrath of Kernunnos" it states that the unit affected can charge a unit of the invoker's choice. Does this override the normal restrictions on frenzied units needing to charge the nearest unit?

As an example of a contextual exception.


Anyhow, I'll give it a rest for now. I need to do some work. :P
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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Rob Lane » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:13 pm

Grizzle wrote:Oh, by the way in the invocation "wrath of Kernunnos" it states that the unit affected can charge a unit of the invoker's choice. Does this override the normal restrictions on frenzied units needing to charge the nearest unit?

As an example of a contextual exception.


Anyhow, I'll give it a rest for now. I need to do some work. :P


Yes. There's a bit in the front of the rulebook about rule precedence - basically, it's warrior profiles take precedence over muster rules and rules, muster rules take precedence over rules.

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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Grizzle » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:52 pm

By the way, quick strike really helps out those two-weapon units. ;)
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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Brightblade » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:26 pm

I'm not saying that all frenzied units are imbalanced, it just seemed in the last game that the abhorrents seemed to be imbalanced, with high skill, what seemed like a crazy amount of attack dice and the quick strike rule, that combined with them never getting weary made then nigh on invincible...
I chucked 5 60mm bases, 2 80mm bases and 1 100mm base at them and barely even dented them.
The Cugacx died instantly, the Moraine Beast was a gonna next battle hour and all the remaining 60mm and 80mm bases had been decimated and had performed a flee reaction... all that in the first battle hour, we never even got to the second battle hour..
Devlin Brightblade, Lord of Saxon Hammerwich, Slayer of Trolls, Tamer of Manticores, Petter of Flint Flang the Kill Thing from the Infernal Pits..

As you slide down the Bannister of Life, may the Splinters be kind...
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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Brightblade » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:30 pm

Any way my co-player says he has a cunning plan for our next battle with Grizzles Ysians, my co-player is an experienced war gamer, so if with his cunning plan he still can't beat them then perhaps they are invincible...
Devlin Brightblade, Lord of Saxon Hammerwich, Slayer of Trolls, Tamer of Manticores, Petter of Flint Flang the Kill Thing from the Infernal Pits..

As you slide down the Bannister of Life, may the Splinters be kind...
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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Grizzle » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:14 am

Brightblade wrote:Any way my co-player says he has a cunning plan for our next battle with Grizzles Ysians, my co-player is an experienced war gamer, so if with his cunning plan he still can't beat them then perhaps they are invincible...


To be fair, I've yet to best his trolls.
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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Brightblade » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:10 am

Dayle will be using my Fomoraic kindred to take you on, I was very surprised when he showed me his Muster...

It will definitely be a challenge against your frenzied abhorrents and brutes..
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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Dayle12 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:49 am

Grizzle you've beaten my trolls before, bloody naked swordsmen sorcerer women grrr
But yeah the trolls are difficult I'll admit that but turns out I've got the leiptrolls wrong (my bad) it's not game changing but may find something to swap them out with or change my tactics with them

And I'm quite looking forward to using the formoraic should be an interesting game on Sunday :)
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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Rob Lane » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:50 am

May I just remind you all that Darklands is meant to be brutal...

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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Grizzle » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:55 am

Dayle12 wrote:Grizzle you've beaten my trolls before, bloody naked swordsmen sorcerer women grrr
But yeah the trolls are difficult I'll admit that but turns out I've got the leiptrolls wrong (my bad) it's not game changing but may find something to swap them out with or change my tactics with them

And I'm quite looking forward to using the formoraic should be an interesting game on Sunday :)


Oh yeah, I forgot about that one. Now we're using the combat results, it makes it very interesting.

And in fairness, the last time would probably have been more close if I hadn't spent so long arguing about separate marks (which would have gone worse for me than what we ended up doing for that damage). Although you would probably have come out on top as we agreed.

Oh Rob, with regards to goad, when you are successful and pick an option that increases the unit's attack dice by 1 for every goading warrior within range, am I right in thinking that if I had 5 goad drunes goading 5 brutes that each brute would get +5 attacks? Or do I have to measure out each individual brute and drune?
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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Rob Lane » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:36 am

Grizzle wrote:Oh Rob, with regards to goad, when you are successful and pick an option that increases the unit's attack dice by 1 for every goading warrior within range, am I right in thinking that if I had 5 goad drunes goading 5 brutes that each brute would get +5 attacks? Or do I have to measure out each individual brute and drune?


It's each individual Brute and Goad-Drune.

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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Brightblade » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:20 am

Rob Lane wrote:May I just remind you all that Darklands is meant to be brutal...

Cheers
Rob


Brutal, agree, but also needs to be fair... otherwise players will get bored of opponents fielding units they have no hope of beating..

Shouldn't base it on one game I know, and as you have said youv'e play tested frenzied units... But when you throw over 900 points worth of units against a 300+ unit and barely scratch them whilst decimating your own, there may well be something wrong...

We'll see in our next game on Sunday...

Sounds like i'm being very critical, and I don't want to come across as that, I do love the game, and the back story and of course the amazing mini's. Just a few little frustrations for me that's all..
Devlin Brightblade, Lord of Saxon Hammerwich, Slayer of Trolls, Tamer of Manticores, Petter of Flint Flang the Kill Thing from the Infernal Pits..

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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Rob Lane » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:16 pm

You're the only person who's ever said (to me, or to my knowledge) that frenzied units are too powerful; almost everybody else I speak to won't use them because they know they can't control them fully.

That's where I'm coming from really - one person having a problem with something is very different to lots of people having a problem with them.

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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Dayle12 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:56 pm

Oh Rob I do have one question about counter charging

If I charge a frenzied unit and it reacts by counter charging , do both mine and my opponents unit get the benefits of charging, I.e the -1 to hit as we're both doing a charge action
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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Brightblade » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:16 pm

Rob Lane wrote:You're the only person who's ever said (to me, or to my knowledge) that frenzied units are too powerful; almost everybody else I speak to won't use them because they know they can't control them fully.

That's where I'm coming from really - one person having a problem with something is very different to lots of people having a problem with them.

Cheers
Rob


We are probably doing a few things wrong with regards to Rules which I guess isn't helping, but we are almost there, and I guess it's just a different way of thinking when you are playing against Frenzied Units, perhaps rather than frontal full on assault you need to play more candid and try to use their strength and frenzy against them...

As I've said I'm new to all this... only have ever played DnD so all this stuff is pretty new to me...

I just remember a post that Jon Chester put on the forum about the Brythonaid Dragon and that if you attacked it with the same level of points as the dragon but with 30mm bases then eventually you would bring it down... so one would assume attacking a 300+ unit with over 900 would easily take it down...
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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Rob Lane » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:26 pm

Dayle12 wrote:Oh Rob I do have one question about counter charging

If I charge a frenzied unit and it reacts by counter charging , do both mine and my opponents unit get the benefits of charging, I.e the -1 to hit as we're both doing a charge action


Yes.

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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Rob Lane » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:30 pm

Brightblade wrote:I just remember a post that Jon Chester put on the forum about the Brythonaid Dragon and that if you attacked it with the same level of points as the dragon but with 30mm bases then eventually you would bring it down... so one would assume attacking a 300+ unit with over 900 would easily take it down...


Frenzied units are slightly different because they can always Attack react; you have to be cuter than just chucking troops at them. Lead them away from your front line by Withdrawing or Fleeing, hurt them with shooting or magic, freeze them, whatever - just don't try to bring them down with lots of different units attacking them one after another, because they'll suffer because of the Attack reactions by the frenzied units. Brace against them. You could even lock them in combat with a high C+A unit that you know will last a long time and make them far less effective.

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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Brightblade » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:01 pm

Thanks Rob, that's great Insight...

I just need to re-wire my brain now rather than just Attack.. Attack.. Attack.. lol
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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby HughB » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:29 pm

So frenzied units like it when you run towards them and get close enough so that they can counter charge your units piece meal and maximise their counter charge/always alert ability. What they don't like is being dragged around the board by fast moving units that make them run away from the soft squishy things they want to be hitting with axes/biting the face off of etc. They also don't particularly like being shot at by lots of bows/magic missiles.

Frenzied units are basically wood chippers. If you want all of your shiny nice new units to be turned into wood chips then be obliging and throw them face first into the wood chipper one after another. If you're not keen on this idea however and want to be sneaky then toss a grenade at the wood chipper. You start throwing grenades at wood chippers and the wood chipper is going to have a bad day (you might want to have a wall handy to hide behind if you fancy trying that for reals).
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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Rob Lane » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:06 am

Thought for the day: don't put your leg in a wood chipper.

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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Brightblade » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:13 pm

I fared better, second time around against the Frenzied units..

Kept my distance and pounding them with Ranged weapons, killed quite a few, still lost but mainly through making bad desicions rather than unit inferiority, the final straw that sealed my demise was when my Scion of Baalor blew himself up with a failed recovery... lol
Devlin Brightblade, Lord of Saxon Hammerwich, Slayer of Trolls, Tamer of Manticores, Petter of Flint Flang the Kill Thing from the Infernal Pits..

As you slide down the Bannister of Life, may the Splinters be kind...
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Re: Throwing my toys out of the pram....

Postby Rob Lane » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:27 pm

Now that is unlucky!

Well, good - I hope you can see that frenzied units are not indefatigable...

Cheers
Rob

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