The Jutes and their Undead

Somewhere to discuss or ask questions about the lore surrounding the Lands of Darkness.
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deadlydeceiver
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The Jutes and their Undead

Postby deadlydeceiver » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:35 pm

Been pondering my favourite kindred for a while and thought about some questions. Alright here I go:

If I understand correctly the Jute undead become/became undead due to botched attempts at beetle shifting.
How long ago did that happen?
It seems they don't need a sorcerer to exist, but are sustained by their own magic.
Given the Wacas' role I assume they somehow lie dormant unless needed?
Are they only able to wake warriors who tried and failed to beetle shift in their lifetime or did they develop a method to raise any dead?

The Jutes only started to "use" the undead when they were in dire circumstances. So it sounds like they were relunctant to do so? If yes, why? Pure ethics?

I know Gasta are revered, is that true for all undead or how do the living feel about them in general?
Are they included in society?

I understand that the Ettenwiht is not big because it "swelled with hate" like the Dreaguth and Gasta, but rather because it's the remains of an ancient giant reanimated.
It sounds like they died long ago, so how are they resurrected as they couldn't be part of the whole beetle shifting fiasco?
Were those giants of old affiliated with the Jutes or are they just convinced to fight for them by the sorcerers? (Is it maybe linked to the legend of Jötunn stemming from Jüten?)
Could an Ettenwiht start to "swell with hate" like a regular Wiht becoming an "Ettendreaguth"?

And my one biggest question, that haunts me since... ever:
How is beetle shifting connected to immortality?

Speaking of beetle shifters:
How much human remains in the fully shifted beetles?
They only shift one way correct?
Are they included in society?
What's their view on the undead?

The manasceancan is a beast like the spiders right? Not shifted.
The only beetle shifters we have at the moment are the mound and crag beetles, correct?


--- I'll stop now... Hope that wasn't too excessive. :mrgreen:

Cheers Sven
Come visit my blog about Mierce, Kingdom Death and more
http://sendtheeighth.blogspot.de/
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Rob Lane
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Re: The Jutes and their Undead

Postby Rob Lane » Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:11 pm

deadlydeceiver wrote:Been pondering my favourite kindred for a while and thought about some questions.


Some!?!?

deadlydeceiver wrote:Alright here I go:

If I understand correctly the Jute undead become/became undead due to botched attempts at beetle shifting.
How long ago did that happen?


2-300 years. Basically when they moved from Jylland in Denmark to Cant / Wiht.

deadlydeceiver wrote:It seems they don't need a sorcerer to exist, but are sustained by their own magic.
Given the Wacas' role I assume they somehow lie dormant unless needed?


Do you mean the undead? Yes. Wāca means waker in Old English, Līcwāca literally means "corpse-waker".

deadlydeceiver wrote:Are they only able to wake warriors who tried and failed to beetle shift in their lifetime or did they develop a method to raise any dead?


They can raise any dead, as long as they undergo their special pupal stage.

deadlydeceiver wrote:The Jutes only started to "use" the undead when they were in dire circumstances. So it sounds like they were relunctant to do so? If yes, why? Pure ethics?


No, they weren't reluctant in any way. In fact once they found out they could do it, all their Christmasses came at once... in a manner of speaking.

deadlydeceiver wrote:I know Gasta are revered, is that true for all undead or how do the living feel about them in general?


True for all - they are their ancestors.

deadlydeceiver wrote:Are they included in society?


I'm not quite sure what you mean, but I think what you're getting at is whether they walk about with live humans - no, they have their barrows and tombs, which they stick to, and most of the time they are dormant. Even if they get visitors, which is rare, they have to be awoken by the Wācas.

deadlydeceiver wrote:I understand that the Ettenwiht is not big because it "swelled with hate" like the Dreaguth and Gasta, but rather because it's the remains of an ancient giant reanimated.
It sounds like they died long ago, so how are they resurrected as they couldn't be part of the whole beetle shifting fiasco?


See above - they can raise any dead, as long as the pupal stage is gone through. So if something's already dead, they can't do it; but if they are alive, they can be transformed by that pupal stage (plus their secret ingredients). So they must have had a live giant at some point.

deadlydeceiver wrote:Were those giants of old affiliated with the Jutes or are they just convinced to fight for them by the sorcerers? (Is it maybe linked to the legend of Jötunn stemming from Jüten?)


Affiliated - they are, effectively, similar to the Jötnar / Giants of the Albainn; they were already there, in Hampshire, when the Jutes arrived. See the land of Ytene: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Forest

Ytene is a cognate for Etten/Ettin, or giant, and also Jute...

I swear, I don't have to write this stuff. It's all there, in our history...

deadlydeceiver wrote:Could an Ettenwiht start to "swell with hate" like a regular Wiht becoming an "Ettendreaguth"?


No, they're too dim for that.

deadlydeceiver wrote:And my one biggest question, that haunts me since... ever:
How is beetle shifting connected to immortality?


Wizards did it!

Seriously though - the pupal stage is something that is not understand in its entirety, even now, so with a little sprinkling of magic there's no reason why this can't occur.

deadlydeceiver wrote:Speaking of beetle shifters:
How much human remains in the fully shifted beetles?


Not a lot physically, but memories and thoughts - animalistic now but they do retain intelligence to an extent.

deadlydeceiver wrote:They only shift one way correct?


Correct.

deadlydeceiver wrote:Are they included in society?


No, they have no interest in such things.

deadlydeceiver wrote:What's their view on the undead?


Nothing really - they are animals: they don't care unless they have to fight them.

deadlydeceiver wrote:The manasceancan is a beast like the spiders right? Not shifted.


Yes.

deadlydeceiver wrote:The only beetle shifters we have at the moment are the mound and crag beetles, correct?


That's right, although there'll be Cairn Beetles (50mm) at some point. There will be others, eventually...!

deadlydeceiver wrote:--- I'll stop now... Hope that wasn't too excessive. :mrgreen:


Cheers Sven[/quote]

No, not at all! I love this stuff!

Cheers
Rob
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deadlydeceiver
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Re: The Jutes and their Undead

Postby deadlydeceiver » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:44 pm

Wow Rob, many thanks for the detailed and extensive answers. Glad you enjoy the lore questions.
Darklands lore has a very special and intriguing vibe to it that makes the imagination run wild. :mrgreen:

I have some (yes, only some) follow-ups ^^

So the phases of the pupal stage are as follows:
1. Living person/entity
2. Enters pupal stage
3. Jute special magic used on pupae
4. Person emerges (seemingly unchanged?)
5. Person dies
6. Person is undead

Is this about correct?

So every single undead had to be "treated" at lifetime and only those can be raised?
An already dead person can not be put in pupal stage and then be raised?

How is communication working with the undead? Can only the Waca do it? Can Undead talk? Are the "bigger" undead still capable of sane communication?

Are the beetles immortal by age? The Jute kindred text seems to hint at some kind of immortality.

Oh and a fundamental one: What is the Jutes' religion?

Best Sven
Come visit my blog about Mierce, Kingdom Death and more
http://sendtheeighth.blogspot.de/

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