Rules clarifications/Questions

[DrNO172000]

Hi!

I hope no one has already asked this, I did search the forums and check the errata but it's always possible I missed it. If I am repeating a question my apologies.

My first question is under 6.20.2.1 that it states that an Attack Reaction is compulsory for Feral or frenzied units. Under 6.20.7.2 though it states Feral, frenzied and Wild units make compulsory Attack Reactions. Just want to ask which one is the most correct, I.E. should Wild units be making compulsory attack reactions or not?

For my second question, the Attack Result Reaction Table is confusing me quite a bit. It reads

Privilege: is a Slave, but not Undead, nor a Construct.
Trait: is not Fearless
Attack Damage: has taken attack damage from the Attack action that caused them to be defeated
Dismay Tokens: or has a confused, shaken, afraid, or flanked token attached to it.
Vigour: or is unconscious
Mobility: or is prone, immobile or entangled
Mobility: is not circling
Acuity: or is a Levy unit

My confusion is how I should read this, does only one thing need to apply for a unit to take an Attack Result Reaction? I feel as though this is not the case as the other tables read more clearly, and read as if each different requirement must apply for a reaction to occur. With the "or" requirements simply replacing the requirement the immediately follow. For example in the shoot reaction result table Heavily damaged is followed by several or statements which imply that those statements would replace the Heavily damaged requirement. So, for example, a damaged but not necessarily heavily damaged Slave unit would still take a reaction from shooting.

The part that makes the Attack Result Reaction table not quite work is the fact that the very first requirement reads "is a slave" which would seem to imply either only one requirement need be met or the "is a slave" should be a separate line with "or" in front. Which if only one requirement need apply that's then the "is not fearless" would apply to most all units and they'd all be taking reactions damaged or not, that doesn't seem right. And if all need to apply, with the exception of "or" statements replacing the ones they follow, that still doesn't seem right as that would mean only Slave units take a reaction. Sorry for the wall of text on that one but want to be clear about what I asking, in other words, does the table need errata or am I reading it wrong?

Third question, many reaction tables refer to a flanked token. Is that supposed to be a blind beset token? As I can find no other mention of flanked tokens.

Thanks!

[Rob Lane]

Hi!

I hope no one has already asked this, I did search the forums and check the errata but it's always possible I missed it. If I am repeating a question my apologies.

Mate don't be daft - I welcome all questions, even if they've been asked before!

My first question is under 6.20.2.1 that it states that an Attack Reaction is compulsory for Feral or frenzied units. Under 6.20.7.2 though it states Feral, frenzied and Wild units make compulsory Attack Reactions. Just want to ask which one is the most correct, I.E. should Wild units be making compulsory attack reactions or not?

It's 6.20.7.2 - under certain circumstances (determined by the Attack Result reaction Criteria) Wild units can also be compelled to perform an Attack reaction. Basically so that wild monsters can go a-Trampling ;o)

For my second question, the Attack Result Reaction Table is confusing me quite a bit. It reads

Privilege: is a Slave, but not Undead, nor a Construct.
Trait: is not Fearless
Attack Damage: has taken attack damage from the Attack action that caused them to be defeated
Dismay Tokens: or has a confused, shaken, afraid, or flanked token attached to it.
Vigour: or is unconscious
Mobility: or is prone, immobile or entangled
Mobility: is not circling
Acuity: or is a Levy unit

My confusion is how I should read this, does only one thing need to apply for a unit to take an Attack Result Reaction? I feel as though this is not the case as the other tables read more clearly, and read as if each different requirement must apply for a reaction to occur. With the "or" requirements simply replacing the requirement the immediately follow. For example in the shoot reaction result table Heavily damaged is followed by several or statements which imply that those statements would replace the Heavily damaged requirement. So, for example, a damaged but not necessarily heavily damaged Slave unit would still take a reaction from shooting.

The part that makes the Attack Result Reaction table not quite work is the fact that the very first requirement reads "is a slave" which would seem to imply either only one requirement need be met or the "is a slave" should be a separate line with "or" in front. Which if only one requirement need apply that's then the "is not fearless" would apply to most all units and they'd all be taking reactions damaged or not, that doesn't seem right. And if all need to apply, with the exception of "or" statements replacing the ones they follow, that still doesn't seem right as that would mean only Slave units take a reaction. Sorry for the wall of text on that one but want to be clear about what I asking, in other words, does the table need errata or am I reading it wrong?

Looking at it, I can see where you're getting the above, so I guess it needs to be more explicit.

Simply put, if any of those criteria apply (but not necessarily all of them), the Defeated unit has fulfilled the Attack Result reaction criteria... I'll make sure that's clear in the next iteration (and add an errata).

Third question, many reaction tables refer to a flanked token. Is that supposed to be a blind beset token? As I can find no other mention of flanked tokens.

Yeah, that's right - Flanked Tokens are now Blind Beset Tokens; the reason is complicated but basically the new title reflects what it actually means in the game. Looks like I missed a few instances of Flanked, or I may have made the decision after the book came out... either way I need to fix them!

Cheers
Rob

[DrNO172000]

Thanks Rob!

Follow up question though, as I just want to be sure I'm doing it right.

With the attack chart does that mean if a non-fearless unit has not taken damage at all they still must do an Attack Result Reaction because they are not fearless? Or if a fearless unit has taken damage it must also do an Attack Result Reaction, though they can't do most of them legally obviously, for instance a fearless frenzied unit takes damage and loses combat, they still roll on the Attack Result Reaction table for Frenzied units and apply the results that Fearless can't prevent correct?

Also again just for my own understanding, because I can be quite daft hehe.

For compulsory attack reactions a Feral or Frenzied unit will always make a compulsory attack reaction defeated or not but a wild unit will only do so if it gets that result when defeated?

Thanks again!

[Rob Lane]

Thanks Rob!

Follow up question though, as I just want to be sure I'm doing it right.

With the attack chart does that mean if a non-fearless unit has not taken damage at all they still must do an Attack Result Reaction because they are not fearless?

No, they have to take damage. The Attack Damage part is important!

Or if a fearless unit has taken damage it must also do an Attack Result Reaction, though they can't do most of them legally obviously, for instance a fearless frenzied unit takes damage and loses combat, they still roll on the Attack Result Reaction table for Frenzied units and apply the results that Fearless can't prevent correct?

Fearless units don't take part in the Attack Result Reaction at all, except for frenzied units.

Also again just for my own understanding, because I can be quite daft hehe.

For compulsory attack reactions a Feral or Frenzied unit will always make a compulsory attack reaction defeated or not but a wild unit will only do so if it gets that result when defeated?

No, you're getting things wrapped around your tabs (as we say here). No unit makes an Attack Result Reaction if they're Victorious. Only Defeated units take those reactions.

1
The attack result reaction criteria are fulfilled if a Defeated unit fulfils any of the following criteria:

- is a Slave but not Undead, nor a Construct (so any Slave units will perform a reaction)
- is not fearless (any non-fearless unit except frenzied / wild)
- it's taken attack damage (thus ensuring units beaten only by banners or strength are okay)
- it's confused, shaken, afraid or blind beset
- it's unconscious
- it's prone, immoble or entangled
- it's not circling
- is a Levy unit (so any Levy units will perform a reaction if they're Defeated)

2
Once you've determined whether the unit fulfils the Attack result reaction criteria, you need to work your way through the VI.XX.XI: ATTACK RESULT REACTION SEQUENCE (the box on the top right of page 209).

Does that make sense?

Cheers
Rob

[DrNO172000]

No, they have to take damage. The Attack Damage part is important!

Ok but this part here below seems to contradict that? As you've said that if a defeated unit fulfils "any" part of it. For example, a group of Ysian Ax-Drunes are defeated due to having less exult tokens then their foe. They are not fearless so they fulfil that criteria, they are not damaged or any of the other criteria. They are still, however, fulfilling any part of the criteria, which is the not fearless part.

1


The attack result reaction criteria are fulfilled if a Defeated unit fulfils any of the following criteria:

- is a Slave but not Undead, nor a Construct (so any Slave units will perform a reaction)
- is not fearless (any non-fearless unit except frenzied / wild)
- it's taken attack damage (thus ensuring units beaten only by banners or strength are okay)
- it's confused, shaken, afraid or blind beset
- it's unconscious
- it's prone, immoble or entangled
- it's not circling
- is a Levy unit (so any Levy units will perform a reaction if they're Defeated)

2
Once you've determined whether the unit fulfils the Attack result reaction criteria, you need to work your way through the VI.XX.XI: ATTACK RESULT REACTION SEQUENCE (the box on the top right of page 209).

Does that make sense?

Cheers
Rob

For the compulsory attack reaction question, I think we may have gotten subjects crossed. I'm not asking about attack result reactions with that one. Rather I am asking about compulsory attack backs. I'll quote the parts of the rulebook in full to be more clear

6.20.2.1
Declare Attack Reaction

Once the Attacking unit's Attack action (sometimes referred to as the Attacker's Attack action for clarity) has been declared, the opposing player may then declare an Attack action (sometimes referred to as the Attacked unit's Attack action or an Attack reaction) as a reaction with any or all of its Attacked units against the Attacking unit.

If the Attacked unit does not declare this Attack reaction before the Attacking unit roll its first attack dice, then the Attacked unit cannot perform the Attack reaction.

As such, Attack reactions are voluntary reactions, except for the Feral or frenzied units, whose Attack reactions are compulsory reactions.

That portion mentions only Feral and frenzied units do compulsory attack backs (attack reactions)

6.20.7.2
Attack Reactions

Once all of the Attack actions by the Attacking unit have been resolved, the Attacked unit may perform any Attack reactions it declared. Attack reactions are, of course exactly the same as Attack actions except that they are performed as a reaction.

Remember that if an Attack reaction was not declared, and attack dice have been rolled by the Attacking unit, the Attacked unit can not perform an Attack reaction. The only exception to this rule are Feral, frenzied and Wild units, who perform compulsory Attack reactions and as such do not need to declare them.

Where as this one says that Wild units also must compulsory attack back (attack reaction). All that is supposed to happen before you even calculate attack results or get to Result reactions. So to clarify I'm asking which entry is correct when it comes to attacking back? Also I want to ask this before I forget, for feral and frenzied units since it's a compulsory reaction (that much is clear as both entries say so) does that mean they'll do it regardless of the fact that Attack action requires the unit to be lively or alert?

Sorry for any confusion.

[Rob Lane]

Ok but this part here below seems to contradict that? As you've said that if a defeated unit fulfils "any" part of it. For example, a group of Ysian Ax-Drunes are defeated due to having less exult tokens then their foe. They are not fearless so they fulfil that criteria, they are not damaged or any of the other criteria. They are still, however, fulfilling any part of the criteria, which is the not fearless part.

Okay, you got me there - let me sort this out.

This will be the new text:

If a Defeated unit:

- is a Slave unit
- or is a Levy unit
- or has suffered attack damage
- or is confused, shaken, afraid or blind beset
- or is unconscious
- or is prone, immobile or entangled

...then that Defeated unit has fulfilled the Attack Result Reaction Criteria and must follow the Attack Result reaction Sequence below to determine which Attack Result reaction they have to perform.

Units that are Fearless but not frenzied, or that are Circling, never perform Attack result reactions - they are deemed not to have fulfilled any of the Attack Result Reaction Criteria.

That should sort your example of the Ax-Drunes above.

I've removed the Undead / Construct part because they're fearless (see the Traits section).

We got there in the end!

For the compulsory attack reaction question, I think we may have gotten subjects crossed. I'm not asking about attack result reactions with that one. Rather I am asking about compulsory attack backs. I'll quote the parts of the rulebook in full to be more clear

Oh right.

Where as this one says that Wild units also must compulsory attack back (attack reaction).

Ahhh I see now. No, Wild units don't have to perform a compulsory Attack reaction.

All that is supposed to happen before you even calculate attack results or get to Result reactions. So to clarify I'm asking which entry is correct when it comes to attacking back? Also I want to ask this before I forget, for feral and frenzied units since it's a compulsory reaction (that much is clear as both entries say so) does that mean they'll do it regardless of the fact that Attack action requires the unit to be lively or alert?

Well, frenzied units are always alert, so it doesn't matter - Frenzied units will *always* attack react. See p124, "Frenzied units are always alert".

Cheers
Rob

[DrNO172000]

Thanks Rob, as always you are a great help!

Our group played our first real game the other day which is where the Ax-Drune example actually came from.

I somehow completely missed on pg124 with regards to Frenzied units! So also thanks for pointing that out as well.

We are really looking forward to moving up to Journeyman rules after a few more playthroughs, already we see how rewarding the game can be.

Best,

Kevin

[Rob Lane]

Thanks Rob, as always you are a great help!

Our group played our first real game the other day which is where the Ax-Drune example actually came from.

I somehow completely missed on pg124 with regards to Frenzied units! So also thanks for pointing that out as well.

We are really looking forward to moving up to Journeyman rules after a few more playthroughs, already we see how rewarding the game can be.

Best,

Kevin

No worries! Glad you're enjoying it - and always ask questions!

Cheers
Rob