Charging & Counter Engaging

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Brightblade
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Charging & Counter Engaging

Postby Brightblade » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:30 am

Rob,

In mine and Dayle's game last night there was an issue that was highlighted later on the way home about where the units should be in comparison to each other with a Charge Action and a Counter Engage Action..

My 120mm Krokad charged into Dayles 20 Hrafn Berskers, who are fanatics, who in turn Counter Engaged (Charged), the distance was measured, and we both moved half of the distance.

Now as far as I am concerned a Charge action is a Direct Attack Action whereby the aim of which is to Charge INTO your enemy, in otherwords Base to Base contact, as the Counter Engage action is a Charge Action between two units, I assume the same applies that Base to Base contact is made.

In the scenario in last nights game, when Dayle charged his Berserkers into my Krokad, he remained out of base contact, which meant that once he had entangled my unit with an Invoke that I could not fight back as the attack range was greater than zero inches.

I believe that this was an incorrect combat move and Dayle should have been in Base Contact with my Krokad..

If this had been an Indirect Move, and Dayle's Berserkers had Run or Walked into Battle then they would have been able to stay away from Base to Base contact, but as it was a Direct Attack Action, a Charge, then they should have made Base Contact.

I doubt it would have made much difference to the outcome of the game, but probably would have made me feel better by being able to attack back and take some of the Berserkers down.

So what is correct and what is incorrect, could the Berserkers have stayed away from Base to Base Contact in a Counter Engage Charge or should they have been in Base to Base Contact?

My thoery on this is that the Krokad initiated the Charge with the sole intent of making Base to Base Contact, so if both enemies were charging towards each other, and the Berserkrs stopped short, then the Krokad would have made up the distance to get into Base Contact, as it wouldn't make sense to stop short.
Devlin Brightblade, Lord of Saxon Hammerwich, Slayer of Trolls, Tamer of Manticores, Petter of Flint Flang the Kill Thing from the Infernal Pits..

As you slide down the Bannister of Life, may the Splinters be kind...
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Rob Lane
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Re: Charging & Counter Engaging

Postby Rob Lane » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:48 pm

Brightblade wrote:Rob,

In mine and Dayle's game last night there was an issue that was highlighted later on the way home about where the units should be in comparison to each other with a Charge Action and a Counter Engage Action..

My 120mm Krokad charged into Dayles 20 Hrafn Berskers, who are fanatics, who in turn Counter Engaged (Charged), the distance was measured, and we both moved half of the distance.

Now as far as I am concerned a Charge action is a Direct Attack Action whereby the aim of which is to Charge INTO your enemy, in otherwords Base to Base contact, as the Counter Engage action is a Charge Action between two units, I assume the same applies that Base to Base contact is made.

In the scenario in last nights game, when Dayle charged his Berserkers into my Krokad, he remained out of base contact, which meant that once he had entangled my unit with an Invoke that I could not fight back as the attack range was greater than zero inches.


I'll stop you right there - it was indeed an incorrect move, because the Hrafnserkrs are frenzied - they MUST get into base contact.

Apologies, I should have seen that last night, but when I'm playing a game as well sometimes it just gets too confusing for words... or maybe I'm just getting old and slow...

Cheers
Rob
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Re: Charging & Counter Engaging

Postby Rob Lane » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:50 pm

Edit: I'm even slower... the Hrafnserkrs are not frenzied, they're fanatical... so let me address all your points...

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Re: Charging & Counter Engaging

Postby Rob Lane » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:52 pm

Brightblade wrote:Rob,

In mine and Dayle's game last night there was an issue that was highlighted later on the way home about where the units should be in comparison to each other with a Charge Action and a Counter Engage Action..

My 120mm Krokad charged into Dayles 20 Hrafn Berskers, who are fanatics, who in turn Counter Engaged (Charged), the distance was measured, and we both moved half of the distance.

Now as far as I am concerned a Charge action is a Direct Attack Action whereby the aim of which is to Charge INTO your enemy, in otherwords Base to Base contact, as the Counter Engage action is a Charge Action between two units, I assume the same applies that Base to Base contact is made.

In the scenario in last nights game, when Dayle charged his Berserkers into my Krokad, he remained out of base contact, which meant that once he had entangled my unit with an Invoke that I could not fight back as the attack range was greater than zero inches.

I believe that this was an incorrect combat move and Dayle should have been in Base Contact with my Krokad..

If this had been an Indirect Move, and Dayle's Berserkers had Run or Walked into Battle then they would have been able to stay away from Base to Base contact, but as it was a Direct Attack Action, a Charge, then they should have made Base Contact.

I doubt it would have made much difference to the outcome of the game, but probably would have made me feel better by being able to attack back and take some of the Berserkers down.

So what is correct and what is incorrect, could the Berserkers have stayed away from Base to Base Contact in a Counter Engage Charge or should they have been in Base to Base Contact?

My thoery on this is that the Krokad initiated the Charge with the sole intent of making Base to Base Contact, so if both enemies were charging towards each other, and the Berserkrs stopped short, then the Krokad would have made up the distance to get into Base Contact, as it wouldn't make sense to stop short.


Right.

Broadly speaking, this wouldn't be an issue if the fanatics had 0" weapons because one of the requirements for fanatics is that they must engage with all of their weapons. However, the requirements for fanatical, wild or frenzied warriors is that they are attack engaged - i.e., all of their weapons are in attack range (see p161, "...except for the Wilder warriors!"). Dayle did do this.

However, in doing so, the krokod didn't get into attack range with all of his weapons. The hrafnserkrs should have moved up to 0" so that the krokod didn't break the rules.

Does that make sense?

Cheers
Rob
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Brightblade
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Re: Charging & Counter Engaging

Postby Brightblade » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:16 pm

Yes it makes sense, and thank you for explaining Charge to me also, food for thought for the next game me thinks, but only for none wild/fanatical or frenzied...
Devlin Brightblade, Lord of Saxon Hammerwich, Slayer of Trolls, Tamer of Manticores, Petter of Flint Flang the Kill Thing from the Infernal Pits..

As you slide down the Bannister of Life, may the Splinters be kind...
Dayle12
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Re: Charging & Counter Engaging

Postby Dayle12 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:38 pm

Hey Rob I have another question regarding the shenanigans yesterday

If the krokod charges the hrafnserkrs and gythja

And hrafnserkrs counter charge and gythja holds and invokes

Let's say I counter charge react with the hrafnserkrs, does the gythja get to do it's reaction invoke before any attacks are made ?

If so, could i get the hrafnserkrs to within 0.5"
Thus all conditions are met for charging (as krokod isn't blinded yet)
Then I react the gythja to invoke and blind the krokod meanings it's sight becomes 0" before any attacks are made

Or is it if I counter charge I must then attack and finish that reaction before I can use the gythjas

And in that case would the krokod attack before the gythja reacts or after



Basically it's a question on the order of how things are done
Dayle12
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Re: Charging & Counter Engaging

Postby Dayle12 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:41 pm

Basically if the hrafnserkrs were to counter charge would they need to fulfil all linked actions (attack) before my gythja casts it's invoke, and would the invoke would happen before the krokod attacks

Or could the hrafnserkrs counter charge, but before linked actions occur the gythja reacts (invokes)
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Re: Charging & Counter Engaging

Postby Rob Lane » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:57 pm

Dayle12 wrote:Basically if the hrafnserkrs were to counter charge would they need to fulfil all linked actions (attack) before my gythja casts it's invoke, and would the invoke would happen before the krokod attacks

Or could the hrafnserkrs counter charge, but before linked actions occur the gythja reacts (invokes)


It's your choice, really. The gythja (whom I've now given fanatical to if she Compels hrafnskers - an oversight on my part and the reason I get you guys to playtest!) is performing a reaction - a Counter-Charge and Invoke reaction, to be specific. The hrafnserkrs are performing a Counter-Charge reaction at the same time. She'd have to stop half way to do the Counter-Charge and Invoke reaction, of course, and then fulfils the rest and goes into the unit.

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Rob
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Re: Charging & Counter Engaging

Postby Dayle12 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:01 pm

Okay so
Under that rule
If they both counter charge

And get within combat range 0.5" (all the charge requirements are met) as krokod still has its weapons in combat range

The gythja then invokes and blinds the krokod,
Krokods sight becomes 0"
Thus can't attack back (providing I'm not in base contact)
Sorry if this seems pedantic at all I'm just curious as to how make my stuff synergize better
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Re: Charging & Counter Engaging

Postby Rob Lane » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:06 pm

Dayle12 wrote:Okay so
Under that rule
If they both counter charge

And get within combat range 0.5" (all the charge requirements are met) as krokod still has its weapons in combat range

The gythja then invokes and blinds the krokod,
Krokods sight becomes 0"
Thus can't attack back (providing I'm not in base contact)
Sorry if this seems pedantic at all I'm just curious as to how make my stuff synergize better


You can do that, but as the gythja does the invocation halfway she'd have to get into contact with the krokod to not break the rules.

Cheers
Rob
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Brightblade
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Re: Charging & Counter Engaging

Postby Brightblade » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:23 pm

My Krokad wants to eat meaty Hfranserkers not Scrawny wizards...

Besides, wouldn't the gythja be weary after charging so wouldnt be able to invoke?
Devlin Brightblade, Lord of Saxon Hammerwich, Slayer of Trolls, Tamer of Manticores, Petter of Flint Flang the Kill Thing from the Infernal Pits..

As you slide down the Bannister of Life, may the Splinters be kind...
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Re: Charging & Counter Engaging

Postby Rob Lane » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:59 pm

Brightblade wrote:My Krokad wants to eat meaty Hfranserkers not Scrawny wizards...

Besides, wouldn't the gythja be weary after charging so wouldnt be able to invoke?


She does it during the Counter-Charge... at the halfway point between the two units...

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Brightblade
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Re: Charging & Counter Engaging

Postby Brightblade » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:32 pm

So if we are meeting at 6 inches, she would invoke at 3 inches then finish her charge is that correct?
What are the rest of the Hrafnserkers doing whilst she is invoking, are they waiting around for the invoke to go off or are they still charging?
Devlin Brightblade, Lord of Saxon Hammerwich, Slayer of Trolls, Tamer of Manticores, Petter of Flint Flang the Kill Thing from the Infernal Pits..

As you slide down the Bannister of Life, may the Splinters be kind...
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Brightblade
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Re: Charging & Counter Engaging

Postby Brightblade » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:34 pm

Brightblade wrote:Rob,

In mine and Dayle's game last night there was an issue that was highlighted later on the way home about where the units should be in comparison to each other with a Charge Action and a Counter Engage Action..

My 120mm Krokad charged into Dayles 20 Hrafn Berskers, who are fanatics, who in turn Counter Engaged (Charged), the distance was measured, and we both moved half of the distance.

Now as far as I am concerned a Charge action is a Direct Attack Action whereby the aim of which is to Charge INTO your enemy, in otherwords Base to Base contact, as the Counter Engage action is a Charge Action between two units, I assume the same applies that Base to Base contact is made.

In the scenario in last nights game, when Dayle charged his Berserkers into my Krokad, he remained out of base contact, which meant that once he had entangled my unit with an Invoke that I could not fight back as the attack range was greater than zero inches.

I believe that this was an incorrect combat move and Dayle should have been in Base Contact with my Krokad..

If this had been an Indirect Move, and Dayle's Berserkers had Run or Walked into Battle then they would have been able to stay away from Base to Base contact, but as it was a Direct Attack Action, a Charge, then they should have made Base Contact.

I doubt it would have made much difference to the outcome of the game, but probably would have made me feel better by being able to attack back and take some of the Berserkers down.

So what is correct and what is incorrect, could the Berserkers have stayed away from Base to Base Contact in a Counter Engage Charge or should they have been in Base to Base Contact?

My thoery on this is that the Krokad initiated the Charge with the sole intent of making Base to Base Contact, so if both enemies were charging towards each other, and the Berserkrs stopped short, then the Krokad would have made up the distance to get into Base Contact, as it wouldn't make sense to stop short.


To make this even more confusing, I omitted from this first post the fact that the action I declared was a Slam action with the Krokad into the Hrafnserkers, which is a Base to base contact move..
So how does that change the dynamics of this Counter Charge question?

The Krokads footprint on the Battlefield was 120mm the complete unit of 30 Hrafnserkers had a bigger footprint than 120mm, so after the slam action had been resolved there would surely have been Hrafnserkers that had not been displaced and were still in base to base contact..

The Hrafnserkers could not have stopped 0.5inches out from the Krokad or that would have made the Slam action illegal..
Devlin Brightblade, Lord of Saxon Hammerwich, Slayer of Trolls, Tamer of Manticores, Petter of Flint Flang the Kill Thing from the Infernal Pits..

As you slide down the Bannister of Life, may the Splinters be kind...
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Re: Charging & Counter Engaging

Postby Rob Lane » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:48 am

Brightblade wrote:To make this even more confusing, I omitted from this first post the fact that the action I declared was a Slam action with the Krokad into the Hrafnserkers, which is a Base to base contact move..
So how does that change the dynamics of this Counter Charge question?


Doesn't change it in any way. A Slam is still a direct Engagement action.

Brightblade wrote:The Krokads footprint on the Battlefield was 120mm the complete unit of 30 Hrafnserkers had a bigger footprint than 120mm, so after the slam action had been resolved there would surely have been Hrafnserkers that had not been displaced and were still in base to base contact..

The Hrafnserkers could not have stopped 0.5inches out from the Krokad or that would have made the Slam action illegal..


Well yes, that's correct, the Hrafnserkrs (as already established) should have base contacted the Krokod. I'm not sure what your point is - we already know that? Doesn't matter whether it's a Slam or not.

Cheers
Rob

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