quesition about jute spell - through the veil

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HughB
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quesition about jute spell - through the veil

Postby HughB » Thu May 09, 2019 9:56 pm

If a dreaguth deathbringer is part of a unit of dreaguth, can he activate and cast through the veil on the unit to move both the unit and himself 3D10". If this move puts them in contact with an enemy unit, the unit can act as if it has ambushed the enemy unit. Questions are as follows:

Can the dreaguth deathbringer move himself as well as the dreaguth unit as part of the fetch move or does he have to activate and leave the unit to then cast through the veil on the unit.

If the dreaguth deathbringer has activated to cast the spell, presumably this means that if he does move as part of the unit, he can't count as ambushing as he wont be lively. Does he instead count as having indirectly engaged with a unit as he will be alert having cast the spell? Does this mean the ambushed unit gets a chance to react against the deathbringer only?
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Re: quesition about jute spell - through the veil

Postby Rob Lane » Fri May 10, 2019 7:59 am

HughB wrote:If a dreaguth deathbringer is part of a unit of dreaguth, can he activate and cast through the veil on the unit to move both the unit and himself 3D10". If this move puts them in contact with an enemy unit, the unit can act as if it has ambushed the enemy unit. Questions are as follows:

Can the dreaguth deathbringer move himself as well as the dreaguth unit as part of the fetch move or does he have to activate and leave the unit to then cast through the veil on the unit.


Yes he can, unless the invocation specifically says he can't. He's part of the unit.

HughB wrote:If the dreaguth deathbringer has activated to cast the spell, presumably this means that if he does move as part of the unit, he can't count as ambushing as he wont be lively. Does he instead count as having indirectly engaged with a unit as he will be alert having cast the spell?

Yes, that's correct.

HughB wrote:Does this mean the ambushed unit gets a chance to react against the deathbringer only?


Yes.

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HughB
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Re: quesition about jute spell - through the veil

Postby HughB » Fri May 10, 2019 4:14 pm

Cool. Oh my god its like I'm actually starting to understand the rules. Next question on this.

Deathbringer activates and casts through the veil on himself and a unit of dreaguth. The unit is moved 3D10". The unit can then activate and move if they wish to (this is presuming they are lively). Having cast a spell on himself can the dreaguth then continue to move with the unit as he is yet to move or does casting the spell essentially end his activation and does he go from being lively to alert having being fetched (so he would be fetch moved with the unit but would then be left behind as the unit moves again)?
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HughB
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Re: quesition about jute spell - through the veil

Postby HughB » Mon May 27, 2019 4:57 pm

Sorry to be a pest on this. Just bumping to confirm whether the death bringer can move after casting through the veil on himself or not.

thanks

H
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Re: quesition about jute spell - through the veil

Postby Rob Lane » Mon May 27, 2019 10:56 pm

Sorry, missed this...

HughB wrote:Cool. Oh my god its like I'm actually starting to understand the rules. Next question on this.

Deathbringer activates and casts through the veil on himself and a unit of dreaguth. The unit is moved 3D10". The unit can then activate and move if they wish to (this is presuming they are lively). Having cast a spell on himself can the dreaguth then continue to move with the unit as he is yet to move or does casting the spell essentially end his activation and does he go from being lively to alert having being fetched (so he would be fetch moved with the unit but would then be left behind as the unit moves again)?


Well, after Invoking - assuming your tolerance is not reached - you can perform a linked Move action, so it all hinges on that really. If you've used up your tolerance, the Deathbringer can't do nowt after innit. The rest of the unit - assuming they're lively - just leave him behind like a spare part.

"Thanks for the lift mate."

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Re: quesition about jute spell - through the veil

Postby HughB » Thu May 30, 2019 12:52 pm

This out of activation business is blowing my tiny mind (you may have noticed). Something else occurs to me regarding this. The wording of this spell states that the unit only activates immediately (and ambushes) if the 3D10" move brings it into contact with an enemy unit. So if it doesn't contact an enemy unit it doesn't automatically activate.

So you've got a deathbringer attached to a unit of dreaguth/ghasts/cyning/whatever. The deathbringer activates and casts the through the veil spell to move the unit. If the unit lands on an enemy unit then everything is dandy. The unit ambushes while the deathbringer indirectly engages (though can attack as he's only used one of his tolerance to invoke) and eats what ever reaction the unit might have other than holding. If the 3D10" fetch move doesn't land them on an enemy unit then at that point for the unit to be able to move forward and attack an enemy unit can they:

A) just crack on and do that as part of the deathbringers activation (he being part of the unit and all)

or

B) does the deathbringer have to declare when he is casting the spell that he is leaving the unit, cast the spell and now he's alert and not lively (thus he can't move again) and does the ghast cyning have to roll to retain the initiative for the unit minus the deathbringer to then activate as a second activation then move and engage an enemy unit.

Sorry if this isn't making much sense and if it looks like I'm trying to fit square pegs into round holes. Basically what I'm trying to do is use move through the veil as a threat extender spell in cases where I'm not sure whether a unit is within charge range/gaze range of the dreaguth unit and want to get them in threat range (as well as its perhaps more intended use of getting units out of sticky combats that they don't want any part of).
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Re: quesition about jute spell - through the veil

Postby Rob Lane » Thu May 30, 2019 1:28 pm

HughB wrote:This out of activation business is blowing my tiny mind (you may have noticed). Something else occurs to me regarding this. The wording of this spell states that the unit only activates immediately (and ambushes) if the 3D10" move brings it into contact with an enemy unit. So if it doesn't contact an enemy unit it doesn't automatically activate.

So you've got a deathbringer attached to a unit of dreaguth/ghasts/cyning/whatever. The deathbringer activates and casts the through the veil spell to move the unit. If the unit lands on an enemy unit then everything is dandy. The unit ambushes while the deathbringer indirectly engages (though can attack as he's only used one of his tolerance to invoke) and eats what ever reaction the unit might have other than holding. If the 3D10" fetch move doesn't land them on an enemy unit then at that point for the unit to be able to move forward and attack an enemy unit can they:

A) just crack on and do that as part of the deathbringers activation (he being part of the unit and all)

or

B) does the deathbringer have to declare when he is casting the spell that he is leaving the unit, cast the spell and now he's alert and not lively (thus he can't move again) and does the ghast cyning have to roll to retain the initiative for the unit minus the deathbringer to then activate as a second activation then move and engage an enemy unit.


B. Assuming he's not leading the unit of course, the Deathbringer casts the invocation and declares what he's doing (whether he's Leaving the unit or not), then finishes his activation. If he's Left the unit all well and good - the Gast Cyning has to retain of course if you want to activate immediately, or he can just wait. If he's with the unit - i.e., he's moving with it - he finishes his activation and if he's not leading the unit - same, the Gast Cyning has to retain to activate immediately, but then he'd Leave the deathbringer behind anyway. So you're screwed either way (if you want to keep the deathbringer in the unit) unless the Gast Cyning isn't present and the Deathbringer is leading the unit - although, of course, you have to bank on getting the unit into combat immediately.

Your best bet is to get another wizardy type to cast Through the Veil on them. Then they're all in the same boat.

HughB wrote:Sorry if this isn't making much sense and if it looks like I'm trying to fit square pegs into round holes. Basically what I'm trying to do is use move through the veil as a threat extender spell in cases where I'm not sure whether a unit is within charge range/gaze range of the dreaguth unit and want to get them in threat range (as well as its perhaps more intended use of getting units out of sticky combats that they don't want any part of).


Yes indeed, that's fine of course, it's intended as a threat extender, but the deathbringer has choices to make if he's inside the unit of course.

Cheers
Rob
HughB
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Re: quesition about jute spell - through the veil

Postby HughB » Thu May 30, 2019 2:53 pm

Thanks for the considered response. It feels like I've got a decent handle on the situation now. So what's the significance for if the cyning isn't there and the deathbringer is leading the unit? Does the unit continue moving as normal after the fetch move because the deathbringer is leading it (he moves as a linked action and they move normally)?

You're right it would be simpler if another mage cast the spell on the unit but usually the other two mages I've got in the list are doing other things - reactivating archers, casting dwellers and resurrecting like Billy O. All while nervously twitching, looking at the skies and talking to the resident bug swarm. Busy little blokes so they are.
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Re: quesition about jute spell - through the veil

Postby Rob Lane » Thu May 30, 2019 2:54 pm

HughB wrote:Thanks for the considered response. It feels like I've got a decent handle on the situation now. So what's the significance for if the cyning isn't there and the deathbringer is leading the unit? Does the unit continue moving as normal after the fetch move because the deathbringer is leading it (he moves as a linked action and they move normally)?


Yes. As long as you do the invocation before the deathbringer Moves.

HughB wrote:You're right it would be simpler if another mage cast the spell on the unit but usually the other two mages I've got in the list are doing other things - reactivating archers, casting dwellers and resurrecting like Billy O. All while nervously twitching, looking at the skies and talking to the resident bug swarm. Busy little blokes so they are.


Lol. Well, it's an option...

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HughB
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Re: quesition about jute spell - through the veil

Postby HughB » Thu May 30, 2019 5:27 pm

Coolio. So I know what happens with that now and I'm pretty sure I know why it happens that way but I think another read through of how nobles and units interact with one another is warranted. I'm dangerously close to the point where I can't cheat with a clear conscience. Doubt it'll last.

The long and the short of it appears to be that its a complex way of doing what I want to do but as I quite like raiding and ranging quite far from the infantry blocks and the support of the other mages, it's a necessary weavel. Particularly as it gives me a sneaky threat extension and asymmetric charge lane opportunity. The deathbringer used to have this spell and the invigorate spell but I had to drop one for illegal list construction reasons. I'm glad I decided to keep this spell rather than the resurrection spell. If anything, in the specific case of the atalantes game last night, the cyning and dreaguth unit being separate from the deathbringer would have been advantageous. Turns out atalantes infantry really don't like Mr Auga. So much so that over twenty of them flat out refused to charge him even after he'd been ruffed up by the bulls of Hull. I was officially amused.
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