Strength Price and Healing Invocations

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Dan Pratt
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Strength Price and Healing Invocations

Postby Dan Pratt » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:07 pm

If a focus invocation has a strength price (6.40.2.2.2), the total price will vary depending on the relative proximity of the sorcerer to the marked unit based on what gets intersected by the focus range.

If I'm a Drui using Life of the Land or Heart of the Land on a unit of Fen Beasts, I should try to keep the Fen Beasts on the edge of my focus range so the strength price is low, seeing as I can only ever restore the constitution of 1 warrior, the wounded warrior.

Should healing invocations (or similar) have the ability to select Distinct Marked Warriors (6.40.3.1.3), in this case the wounded warrior? This may warrant a higher initial price...

In the example above, the Drui may take a 21 to 24 price wounds to heal one fen beast when using either invocation and clipping a max size unit of 5 fen beasts.
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Re: Strength Price and Healing Invocations

Postby Rob Lane » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:19 pm

Dan Pratt wrote:If a focus invocation has a strength price (6.40.2.2.2), the total price will vary depending on the relative proximity of the sorcerer to the marked unit based on what gets intersected by the focus range.

If I'm a Drui using Life of the Land or Heart of the Land on a unit of Fen Beasts, I should try to keep the Fen Beasts on the edge of my focus range so the strength price is low, seeing as I can only ever restore the constitution of 1 warrior, the wounded warrior.

Should healing invocations (or similar) have the ability to select Distinct Marked Warriors (6.40.3.1.3), in this case the wounded warrior? This may warrant a higher initial price...

In the example above, the Drui may take a 21 to 24 price wounds to heal one fen beast when using either invocation and clipping a max size unit of 5 fen beasts.


Not really because you decide which warrior is the wounded warrior whenever you like. Or have I misunderstood the question? I think that's what you mean...

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Re: Strength Price and Healing Invocations

Postby Dan Pratt » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:39 pm

Not really because you decide which warrior is the wounded warrior whenever you like. Or have I misunderstood the question? I think that's what you mean...


No, I understand that part.

I'm saying you have to pay a potentially very large total price to heal the 1 wounded warrior because of the strength price. If the Drui's focus range engulfs the whole unit of strength 4 warriors versus the focus range partially clipping one warrior's base only, the strength price could vary considerably.

You can't reduce your focus range to reduce the strength price, correct?
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Re: Strength Price and Healing Invocations

Postby Rob Lane » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:04 pm

Ah, I see what you're getting at.

It was actually that way before, but it was too cheap. So now it's not. Giving life to your creatures is a really, really useful thing and it became too powerful. This way it means you have to sacrifice your Druí.

Remember, too, that the wounded warrior is pretty abstract for mechanics purposes (keeping track of each warrior would be very annoying); in reality, there'd be a few of the warriors wounded, etc. etc.

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Re: Strength Price and Healing Invocations

Postby Brightblade » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:32 pm

Rob Lane wrote:Ah, I see what you're getting at.

It was actually that way before, but it was too cheap. So now it's not. Giving life to your creatures is a really, really useful thing and it became too powerful.


In this case the Trolls in the Norse Kindred are very powerful, especially the Gothi and Lieptrolls, the Gothi can fire off lightening strikes against his own trolls to heal them with no loss of constitution to himself as he doesn't pay any price for Lightening Invocations, so the Gothi could literally fire Lightening Invocations one after the other up to 3 times in an activation to heal his fellow Trolls... That's enormous power at zero cost...!!!!

Likewise the Lieptrolls can shoot Lightening bolts on each application to heal their fellow trolls, again lots of power at little cost..

Surely this is too much power?
Devlin Brightblade, Lord of Saxon Hammerwich, Slayer of Trolls, Tamer of Manticores, Petter of Flint Flang the Kill Thing from the Infernal Pits..

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Re: Strength Price and Healing Invocations

Postby Rob Lane » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:08 pm

No, because the Gothi compromises your list in many ways (in terms of what you can bring), he's expensive, he still dies easily enough, and Ancient Temper could really cause you a problem.

We've playtested that one to death. Having said that, Forked Lightning is too cheap - that should be a lot more than it is. I'll sort that in the next iteration of muster changes...

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Re: Strength Price and Healing Invocations

Postby Brightblade » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:25 pm

I don't think he is that expensive at 153 Gold..

Plus the Ancient Power, the Troll Gothi has a temper of 36, low I agree, but if any rolls of a D100 above 50 and the Temper is comparable to other Invoking units, and into the 60's, 70's and above makes his Temper very high thus making him very dangerous when invoking..

Has a relatively High Constitution at 54, good armour class at 60, it's not going to be easy to kill..

Plus the ability to evoke Thunder storms, which it can do on each activation, at zero cost to itself, forcing the opponent to take a Panic Test on all but constructs, and Undead, that coupled with every activation of a unit having to roll a D10 for a possible Lightening Strike, that damages the opponents units but heals the Troll units...

That is one absolute powerful Invoker, and you know what they say about Absolute Power... In my opinion The Gothi is too strong a unit..

I lost half of a full Fomoraic Muster to this one units Thunder Changing through Panic Tests and Lightening Strikes, I retired the game after the second battle hour without even engaging a single troll unit in Battle in fact not even getting close...

You can say it was unlucky dice, and there would be an element of that, but with the ability to change weather to Thunder on every activation with zero cost to the unit, puts the opponent into the position where he is more likely to get unlucky Dice rolls as he is rolling for everything each Battle Hour... Panic Tests, and Lighting Strikes...
Devlin Brightblade, Lord of Saxon Hammerwich, Slayer of Trolls, Tamer of Manticores, Petter of Flint Flang the Kill Thing from the Infernal Pits..

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Re: Strength Price and Healing Invocations

Postby Rob Lane » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:45 pm

Scott, I respect your opinion and thank you for that feedback, but we've playtested him well and I'm happy with him as he is.

He also has to pay for his invocations, so he's not just 153 gold; you can add 60 gold to him for that immediately. I've killed one many times and he's also been good against me. As for the Thunder, he has to get that invocation off to start with, and you don't know your ancient temper before the game. On average dice he's going to be below most other sorcerers' Temper. He's only got 1 recover dice and if you damage him he can't recover that CONSTITUTION. Yes he can invigorate himself, but if he's doing that he's not hurting you.

You've clearly had a bad experience against him, but play against him twenty more times and I can guarantee he won't do the same thing again. (There's also the possibility he was played incorrectly). With the greatest of respect, playing one game doesn't make me want to change anything. If the same thing happens in the next twenty games, that's fair enough, I'll look into him - but I can guarantee it won't.

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Re: Strength Price and Healing Invocations

Postby Brightblade » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:16 am

Thank you for your feedback and yes I agree one game isn't a good indicator..

I will of course respect your opinion, its your wonderous world we are all love playing in afterall, and I will continue playing against the unit and will continue to provide you feedback...
Devlin Brightblade, Lord of Saxon Hammerwich, Slayer of Trolls, Tamer of Manticores, Petter of Flint Flang the Kill Thing from the Infernal Pits..

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Re: Strength Price and Healing Invocations

Postby Icchan » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:45 am

Having played with the Gothi five times now, the highest Ancient Temper roll I've gotten so far has been 10. I've rolled in sequence 08, 04, 02, 00 and lastly 10. In 1000 gold games he takes a big chunk of my points I could have used to upgrade trolls or even get a Gunnrafn and once you've gotten off a few spells with him, he dies pretty easily to any ranged fire or sudden charges from Bulls of Bronze :)

I've never bothered to try and Recover with him, with less than 50% chance he's more likely to get more damage than get it back. Though it would be fun if you could reliably get the worst recovery fail event when he does that, use him as a magical nuclear missile… ;)
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Re: Strength Price and Healing Invocations

Postby Brightblade » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:27 am

Icchan wrote:Having played with the Gothi five times now, the highest Ancient Temper roll I've gotten so far has been 10. I've rolled in sequence 08, 04, 02, 00 and lastly 10. In 1000 gold games he takes a big chunk of my points I could have used to upgrade trolls or even get a Gunnrafn and once you've gotten off a few spells with him, he dies pretty easily to any ranged fire or sudden charges from Bulls of Bronze :)

I've never bothered to try and Recover with him, with less than 50% chance he's more likely to get more damage than get it back. Though it would be fun if you could reliably get the worst recovery fail event when he does that, use him as a magical nuclear missile… ;)


Youve been realy unluckly with your D100 rolls, conversely, when I have played against a Gothi who constantly invokes Thunder Storms each turn forcing D100 panic Rolls, I have most rolled in the High numbers..

Even with a Ancient Temper roll of 10, added to the 36 the Gothi natuarally has that is 46, and when invoking Thuderstorms where the Marked Target is a battelfield with a skill rating of zero, thats still only a roll of a 2 or 3 on a D10, easily acheieved 70 to 80% of the time.

Guess I've just been unlucky the two times Ive played against him, or maybe it was the skill of the player and my unlucky dice rolls..
Devlin Brightblade, Lord of Saxon Hammerwich, Slayer of Trolls, Tamer of Manticores, Petter of Flint Flang the Kill Thing from the Infernal Pits..

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Re: Strength Price and Healing Invocations

Postby Rob Lane » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:34 am

I'd be interested to see a battle report Scott, just so I know your opponent is doing things correctly. Not trying to disrespect him here, at all, so please extend my apologies to him if he's put out by that; but if you want things changing you must give me detailed battle reports. A bit like what Geoff did with his invocations.

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Re: Strength Price and Healing Invocations

Postby Brightblade » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:40 am

Rob Lane wrote:I'd be interested to see a battle report Scott, just so I know your opponent is doing things correctly. Not trying to disrespect him here, at all, so please extend my apologies to him if he's put out by that; but if you want things changing you must give me detailed battle reports. A bit like what Geoff did with his invocations.

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Rob


Thanks Rob,

Im new to Wargaming, do some DnD, but never Miniature Wargaming my opponent introduced me to Darklands and ive been hooked ever since, my opponent is a Battle Hardened Experienced War Gamer..

In our last Battle with the Fomoraic, I faced an all Troll Army, my player skilfully kept the Gothi hidden from all Sighted Range invokes and Sighted Shoot weapons by hiding behind a unit of 60mm Trolls.

I noticed that my opponent did not perform an Ancient Temper roll upon activation of the Gothi, but used it's natural temper to invoke. It's activation each turn was Thunderous Skies at zero cost to itself, using the Battlefield as the Marked Unit, and rolling off Temper of 36 vs Battlefield Skill of 0, from memory a roll of 3 was required.

Each time Thunderous Skies was cast, my units had to perform a Panic Attack, in the first Hour my Tain General was unlucky with his Panic Roll and fled the Battlefield, as to did my Sronax unit and Walvax unit, losing nearly half my units without even making their first activation, my Riever Hunters were able to loose a few arrows against the shielding Troll unit but these were quickly healed by Liep Trolls casting Lightening Bolts on them..

2nd Battle Hour, again Thunderous Skies was successfully invoked, what ground I had made forward in the last activation was lost due to bad panic rolls pushing the remaining half of my host almost back to its starting position, and one Unit, may have been my Sronox fled the field, at which point I Surrendered the game without even scratching my opponent..

That Thunderous Skies really is a powerful invoke and for a Unit that can cast it with no cost to himself time and time again is very dangerous...
Devlin Brightblade, Lord of Saxon Hammerwich, Slayer of Trolls, Tamer of Manticores, Petter of Flint Flang the Kill Thing from the Infernal Pits..

As you slide down the Bannister of Life, may the Splinters be kind...
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Re: Strength Price and Healing Invocations

Postby DrNO172000 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:40 pm

I took a Gothi in a 500pt game and got 70 for my ancient temper roll. So was basically invoking at will. Didn't matter though as my troll unit (only other unit) was destroyed to a man by a charge of Werewolves on turn 2, which caused my Troll Jarl to head for the hills.

Gothi was on his own then!

Trolls can definately get wrecked by certain stuff pretty easily.
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Rob Lane
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Re: Strength Price and Healing Invocations

Postby Rob Lane » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:08 pm

Scott,

What do you mean by "at no cost to himself" - the price is 12, so it costs him 12 CONSTITUTION immediately.

Tain generals are Fearless, so don't take Panic reactions. Neither do Warriors of Baalor. As for the other units, if your Tain fled then it's harder for them to stay on the battlefield. Even if they weren't in command range, it sounds like you've been unlucky.

You also have to factor in that Norse will face much more difficult enemies than Fomoraic in certain ways; Jutes, for example, will simply ignore Thunderous Skies. Not everything works all the time. Norse are difficult for Fomoraic, but Norse find other enemies difficult. There's definitely a rock / paper / scissors thing going on.

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Re: Strength Price and Healing Invocations

Postby Brightblade » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:47 pm

Rob,

On the Troll Gothi Muster it states this...

Mjolnirsson: The Troll Gothi may only Invoke while he bears his War Hammer, but does not pay the initial price of any invocation.

This has been taken by us playing as the Gothi can cast Invocations without having to pay the invocation price, is this wrong?

Also, and I know you have shot me down on this once before, but I don't even think the Gothi should be using the Thunderous Skies Invocation, again on the Troll Gothi Muster it states...

Lightning Invocations: A Troll Gothi may only purchase invocations from the Runic Power invocation list that cause lightning damage.

The Invocation on Thunderous Skies states...

Booming Thunder: the loud, thunderous skies and spears of lightning induce thoughts of doom within the minds of the enemy. All enemy units on the
battlefield must immediately perform a Panic reaction.
Continuous Effect: the battle's current weather immediately changes to Thunderstorm until the end of the current battle hour, at which point it may
change during the The Changing Weather subsection of the Battle Sequence as normal.


No where in the above does it mention that Lightening Damage is done. Now I know you stated last time that the lightening damage was due to the weather, but that is the weather not as a direct result of the invocation, If playing weather rules and Thunder was Rolled Lightening damage would still be dealt without an invocation required..

If the Thunderous Skies Invocation read that the continuous effect was possible Lightening Damage due to the Invocation then, ok, acceptable it states Lightening Damage..

I know I am challenging this rule for the second time, but rules are meant to be challenged, otherwise if you pardon the intentional pun Mankind would never have made it out of the Dark Ages... ;)
Devlin Brightblade, Lord of Saxon Hammerwich, Slayer of Trolls, Tamer of Manticores, Petter of Flint Flang the Kill Thing from the Infernal Pits..

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Re: Strength Price and Healing Invocations

Postby Rob Lane » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:10 pm

Oh yes, forgot about his special hammer. I remember doing that rule now because he was dying very quickly from doing invocations!

Regarding Thunderous Skies, it can cause lightning damage, and that's why I allowed it.

Scott, I'm not going to change him without evidence - A LOT of evidence - that he's broken. It's that simple. You've only used Fomoraic against him, for one thing; try playing against him with another host. Even then I have to use him a number of times to prove he's broken to myself before I'll change him. A couple of people on here have already said he's not broken. 3 to 1 so far mate.

Look, telling me about one game - and one bad experience, which sounds like dice to me - is not evidence; and you've said yourself the Tain fled, when he shouldn't have done.

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Re: Strength Price and Healing Invocations

Postby Jonathon Chester » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:46 pm

It’s also worth noting the khthones Melding Metal spell and other abilities like it to destroy a piece of worne or borne equipment would leave the Gothi unable to cast spells and severely hamper any combat ability it has.
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