Fleeing?

[Kragnorak]

There's something I am not grokking about pg 384 in particular, and perhaps Fleeing in general.

7-52-2-1-3

Reflex attack reactions are only performed if the Chasing unit is fast enough, etc...

My wife's Slaughterers (only Srok, the rest couldn't dent the shellfish) got a crazy crit and knocked a Crabspear prone via Glass Jaw, sending the remaining Crab fleeing due to low Wild reaction to panic. Her unit opts to Stand rather than Chase, which is an easy decision for a Weary unit. But why don't they get a Reflex Attack Reaction against the fleeing unit?

In contrast, chapter 7-20 makes it seem like a Reflex attack reaction is performed any time an enemy unit is fleeing from combat. The first paragraph says they "often occur as a result of an enemy Fleeing or Withdrawing from combat". But it is not mentioned as part of a Stand reaction.

It seems even more strange to me because the rules for a voluntary Retreat action are very clear: If a Retreat test is passed, the unit fends of their attackers and beats an orderly retreat; if the test is failed, the engaged enemies get to make a Reflex Attack reaction on them which may cause them to panic. I would think that a unit that is starting to panic already would be much worse at fending off any attacks of opportunity than voluntary retreaters!

I also wanted to clarify the rules in 3-8-5 and 7-52-5 because we left off our battle tonight when the Crabspear fled point-blank into a giant Kadamastar! If a unit flees into an enemy unit, rule 7-52-5 refers the reader to the Moving Through Units section 3-8-5, which states that the fleeing unit becomes a Moving Through unit if the mass is at least double that of every warrior in the path. (It also confusingly states that 'some units will involuntarily move through intervening units, even friendly ones, and its warriors can be of any mass to do so.) There is a section on Impact Strikes and Reaction Strikes that explains what happens next and then a part that tells how the unit moved through gets displaced.

What I DON'T see in either the Fleeing Through or Moving Through section is what happens when a Mass 7 Crabspear slams headlong into a Mass 16 Kadamastar! Are there still impact strikes? If it was a fleeing Vras in this situation, would they get terrified and panic in another direction? The rules are silent to these points unless I'm missing something and there are not helpful signposts.

The only thing I could find is part of of the Moving Through rules, which seems to be addressing a slightly different situation where a fleeing unit runs PAST an enemy unit:

3-8-5-4

Even if he is not a Moving Through warrior, should any part of a warrior's base Move Through an enemy warrior's attack range [...] that enemy warrior must perform a compulsory Reflex Attack action

Finally, the rules seem to be silent about engagement at the end of the sequence. If the Crabspear could move through a smaller mass unit, it would end up involuntarily engaged per section 3-8-5-3 but I don't see a similar section that addresses this other type of possible involuntary engagement!

Is there a section I'm missing somehow? I feel like much confusion could be avoided if the fleeing section had a 'Fleeing Through' section that points to the 'Moving Through' section and a 'Fleeing Into' section that states what happens when a fleeing unit 'Crashes Into' a unit of larger massed warriors! After all, the Moving Through section can apply to voluntary movement as well. Crashing Into would be a quite distinct event that can only happen during compulsory movement. After all, voluntary movement into an enemy unit is an Engagement or Charge, and this is different. (I DID check the Engagement section and while the words 'involuntary Engagement' appear, they don't seem to mention it as a result of fleeing)

[Rob Lane]

There's something I am not grokking about pg 384 in particular, and perhaps Fleeing in general.

My wife's Slaughterers (only Srok, the rest couldn't dent the shellfish) got a crazy crit and knocked a Crabspear prone via Glass Jaw, sending the remaining Crab fleeing due to low Wild reaction to panic. Her unit opts to Stand rather than Chase, which is an easy decision for a Weary unit. But why don't they get a Reflex Attack Reaction against the fleeing unit?

Because they are choosing to Stand. You can't have your cake and eat it. You either Chase, and attempt to run them down, or you organise yourself to Stand. Standing in the face of a Fleeing enemy is a difficult thing to do, you're trying to concentrate and not run after those fleeing dudes.

In contrast, chapter 7-20 makes it seem like a Reflex attack reaction is performed any time an enemy unit is fleeing from combat. The first paragraph says they "often occur as a result of an enemy Fleeing or Withdrawing from combat".

"Often" does not mean "every" - it means it often happens! Not that it happens every time.

But it is not mentioned as part of a Stand reaction.

Yes, for the above reason.

It seems even more strange to me because the rules for a voluntary Retreat action are very clear: If a Retreat test is passed, the unit fends of their attackers and beats an orderly retreat; if the test is failed, the engaged enemies get to make a Reflex Attack reaction on them which may cause them to panic. I would think that a unit that is starting to panic already would be much worse at fending off any attacks of opportunity than voluntary retreaters!

It's completely different. In a Retreat action, both units are still engaged and trying to kill each other; the Retreating unit is attempting to disengage and reorganise itself, not Flee. In a Stand reaction, the unit Standing is just restraining themselves from Chasing an already Fleeing enemy - i.e., they're trying not to fight!

I also wanted to clarify the rules in 3-8-5 and 7-52-5 because we left off our battle tonight when the Crabspear fled point-blank into a giant Kadamastar! If a unit flees into an enemy unit, rule 7-52-5 refers the reader to the Moving Through Units section 3-8-5, which states that the fleeing unit becomes a Moving Through unit if the mass is at least double that of every warrior in the path. (It also confusingly states that 'some units will involuntarily move through intervening units, even friendly ones, and its warriors can be of any mass to do so.) There is a section on Impact Strikes and Reaction Strikes that explains what happens next and then a part that tells how the unit moved through gets displaced.

What I DON'T see in either the Fleeing Through or Moving Through section is what happens when a Mass 7 Crabspear slams headlong into a Mass 16 Kadamastar! Are there still impact strikes? If it was a fleeing Vras in this situation, would they get terrified and panic in another direction? The rules are silent to these points unless I'm missing something and there are not helpful signposts.

The only thing I could find is part of of the Moving Through rules, which seems to be addressing a slightly different situation where a fleeing unit runs PAST an enemy unit:

3-8-5-4

Even if he is not a Moving Through warrior, should any part of a warrior's base Move Through an enemy warrior's attack range [...] that enemy warrior must perform a compulsory Reflex Attack action

Finally, the rules seem to be silent about engagement at the end of the sequence. If the Crabspear could move through a smaller mass unit, it would end up involuntarily engaged per section 3-8-5-3 but I don't see a similar section that addresses this other type of possible involuntary engagement!

Is there a section I'm missing somehow? I feel like much confusion could be avoided if the fleeing section had a 'Fleeing Through' section that points to the 'Moving Through' section and a 'Fleeing Into' section that states what happens when a fleeing unit 'Crashes Into' a unit of larger massed warriors! After all, the Moving Through section can apply to voluntary movement as well. Crashing Into would be a quite distinct event that can only happen during compulsory movement. After all, voluntary movement into an enemy unit is an Engagement or Charge, and this is different. (I DID check the Engagement section and while the words 'involuntary Engagement' appear, they don't seem to mention it as a result of fleeing)

It's relatively simple; As it says on p384, a Fleeing unit involuntarily Moves Through other units, and it Flees Through them to 1" beyond them. The passage that refers you to Moving Through gives you more detail on what to do when the unit contacts the unit in the way - impact strikes, etc., plus Reflex Attacks by the enemy - but the key part is that as a Fleeing unit you involuntarily Flee Through the enemy, ignoring them all. The part about "double mass" is only for voluntarily Moving Through a unit.

Now, the mass of the enemy unit in the way only matters if you end your Move on top of them; i.e., if you can't Displace them because you're smaller and he's bigger, you're dead. This is in the Displace reaction. But, as the Flee Through rules state that you always end up 1" away from the unit in the way, that can't ever happen when you're Fleeing.

Think of it this way: as a rules mechanic, the Flee Move doesn't take into account all the running around you'd do if you were fleeing, etc. etc. - it just tells you to Move in a straight line.


To summarise: when Fleeing, Move your unit Through the enemy unit (doing impact strikes by your unit / Reflex Attack reactions by the enemy as necessary) until they are 1" beyond them. If there is another unit beyond them that you would be on top of when you end your Flee Move, Move them again to beyond that unit until there's clear space.

Cheers
Rob

[Kragnorak]

Now, the mass of the enemy unit in the way only matters if you end your Move on top of them; i.e., if you can't Displace them because you're smaller and he's bigger, you're dead. This is in the Displace reaction. But, as the Flee Through rules state that you always end up 1" away from the unit in the way, that can't ever happen when you're Fleeing.

Think of it this way: as a rules mechanic, the Flee Move doesn't take into account all the running around you'd do if you were fleeing, etc. etc. - it just tells you to Move in a straight line.


Cheers
Rob

Okay thanks, we did the first part right then, but it's not THAT simple; we're attempting to play the new edition of rules for the first time and the Displace Reaction section is marked "master rule" which is either elite or optional... Why don't the Fleeing rules refer to this possibility?

In the Displaced section 7.2.1.1 it says that warriors of equal mass never perform Displace reactions, so if we envision a flow chart, where does it say what happens next in this case?

To summarise: when Fleeing, Move your unit Through the enemy unit (doing impact strikes by your unit / Reflex Attack reactions by the enemy as necessary) until they are 1" beyond them. If there is another unit beyond them that you would be on top of when you end your Flee Move, Move them again to beyond that unit until there's clear space.

That's how our units are positioned at the moment in the 'saved state' while this is clarified, but it seems strange. An impassable object can't be moved through, but a creature the size of a building can! Everything in my mind's eye says that units could be moved through unless they are double the mass or more in which case I picture a small child crashing into an adult's leg like in every cartoon I've ever seen or every toy store I've ever been in

Anyway, thanks for the help!

- Art

[Rob Lane]

Okay thanks, we did the first part right then, but it's not THAT simple; we're attempting to play the new edition of rules for the first time and the Displace Reaction section is marked "master rule" which is either elite or optional... Why don't the Fleeing rules refer to this possibility?

I'm not sure what you mean - what possibility?

In the Displaced section 7.2.1.1 it says that warriors of equal mass never perform Displace reactions, so if we envision a flow chart, where does it say what happens next in this case?

What do you mean? Displace reactions aren't performed with a Flee reaction - the Fleers just bounce 1" beyond anything in the way.

That's how our units are positioned at the moment in the 'saved state' while this is clarified, but it seems strange. An impassable object can't be moved through, but a creature the size of a building can! Everything in my mind's eye says that units could be moved through unless they are double the mass or more in which case I picture a small child crashing into an adult's leg like in every cartoon I've ever seen or every toy store I've ever been in

Anyway, thanks for the help!

- Art

All I will say is, here, that the Fleeing rules are a mechanic - sometimes I have to suspend the "simulation" for the good of the game and for speed. Fleers would move around pretty much anything in their attempt to get away, to my mind, which is why the Fleeing rules make sure they bounce 1" beyond any unit in the way, neatly solving any issues with stuff in the way and ensuring the game flows.

Cheers
Rob

[Kragnorak]

I think I have all this sorted a bit better mentally now, thanks... what would throw me is any time the rules mention an A or B scenario and then would explain how A works which left me confused about the B situation. (And I only looked up Displacement because you mentioned it, but now I realize that's irrelevant to the flee part for grounded units.)

Fleers would move around pretty much anything in their attempt to get away, to my mind, which is why the Fleeing rules make sure they bounce 1" beyond any unit in the way, neatly solving any issues with stuff in the way and ensuring the game flows.

The reason it was so hard for us to picture is that the sheer awesomeness of the Kadamastar makes him impossible to miss! The image of the Crabspear panicking from a pack of Kroks getting a lucky hit on his pal and running towards an even BIGGER krok is very funny and cinematic, but had us questioning. At this point my army is in a hilarious amount of disarray so it only matters as we attempt to learn the rules.

In this case it just so happens that the flee move is sparking a crazy amount of mayhem because the Crabspear is going to lash out wildly at the Kadamastar, and then once he gets to the other side after it shreds him with an Attack Reaction it is going to careen into the remnants of a unit of Savrar, so they will be sent flying!

[Rob Lane]

The reason it was so hard for us to picture is that the sheer awesomeness of the Kadamastar makes him impossible to miss! The image of the Crabspear panicking from a pack of Kroks getting a lucky hit on his pal and running towards an even BIGGER krok is very funny and cinematic, but had us questioning. At this point my army is in a hilarious amount of disarray so it only matters as we attempt to learn the rules.

In this case it just so happens that the flee move is sparking a crazy amount of mayhem because the Crabspear is going to lash out wildly at the Kadamastar, and then once he gets to the other side after it shreds him with an Attack Reaction it is going to careen into the remnants of a unit of Savrar, so they will be sent flying!

Well, all I would say is, even if you or I were Fleeing, we'd definitely try to avoid the thing in the way if we could!

Although I am confused by your statement "the Crabspear is going to lash out wildly" - he can't, he's broken. He doesn't get any kind of Attack except for impact strikes as he goes through a unit, and they only occur against warrior of less mass than him....

Cheers
Rob

[Kragnorak]

Although I am confused by your statement "the Crabspear is going to lash out wildly" - he can't, he's broken. He doesn't get any kind of Attack except for impact strikes as he goes through a unit, and they only occur against warrior of less mass than him....

Cheers
Rob

Okay, as n00b with rules, let me follow step-by-step what I see. For brevity, I am quoting just those parts that registered in my noggin. I hope you find this helpful because I'm not new to wargaming but clearly haven't played Darklands enough... I imagine at least a few potential players are even dimmer than me


7-52-5 ...The Fleeing Unit involuntarily Moves Through those units... This can mean they physically move further than their flee distance, as they must end up at least 1" beyond the Fled Through unit, if Fleeing warriors are not stronger than Fled Through warriors. See the 3-8-5: Moving Through rules for details...

3-8-5 Usually, warriors cannot make a Ground Move through any other warrior - called a Move Through - whether they are friend or enemy. Thus, it is almost always the case that no part of any Moving warrior's base can pass through any enemy warrior's base during a Ground Move under any circumstances. (Italicized parts feel contradictory)

However, the lands of darkness are populated by many huge monstrosities , mighty beasts or grim giants of old that pay little heed to the tiny, weak creatures scattered around them on the battlefield. Such warriors can ignore anything smaller than them and Move Through friends and enemies alike to get to grips with a powerful enemy. This does have consequences for the units underfoot, however! ( This whole paragraph directs me that my situation is not the rare exception to the "almost always the case" main rule )

3-8-5-1 MOVING THROUGH UNITS Warriors performing a Ground Move may voluntarily Move Through intervening units ... as long as those Moving Through warriors are at least double the mass of every warrior in their path. (That ain't me on two italicized counts, so I skipped this step)

Some units will involuntarily ... Move Through intervening units ... and its warriors can be of any mass to do so. ( on second reading I realized this DOES apply to me after all )

3-8-5-2-2 IMPACT STRIKES If the Moving Through unit is a Swift unit (true in this case?) and has the ability to perform impact strikes during an Attack action, such as those provided during the 'bulk charger' ability (true), any Moved Through unit - friend of enemy - will suffer at least some of those impact strikes...

Each Moving Through warrior that passes through the Moved Through unit must perform an Attack action with all of its combat weapons that can perform impact strikes (excepting impact strikes from borne weapons), as well as any bulk impact strikes, upon the Moved Through unit.

So I bolded that last sentence because it is the rule I see, but I could easily be struggling to understand impact strikes. From what I see here, I CAN use Claws and Trample; I CAN'T use the borne Spear or the Bulk Charger ability itself against a higher mass target. So I thought I'd be making difficult strike tests due to blind panic or something.


Too bad I can't nab a plane ticket to Nottingham right now; I am jonesing to see some real games! We're only playing a 1,000 silver battle and it's bananas XD - Anyway, thanks for you patience as there's a couple things that have me going "arsed if I know!" and I'm pretty sure they stem from preconceptions from 1st Edition or something.

Cheers, Art

[Rob Lane]

Okay, as n00b with rules, let me follow step-by-step what I see. For brevity, I am quoting just those parts that registered in my noggin. I hope you find this helpful because I'm not new to wargaming but clearly haven't played Darklands enough... I imagine at least a few potential players are even dimmer than me


7-52-5 ...The Fleeing Unit involuntarily Moves Through those units... This can mean they physically move further than their flee distance, as they must end up at least 1" beyond the Fled Through unit, if Fleeing warriors are not stronger than Fled Through warriors. See the 3-8-5: Moving Through rules for details...

3-8-5 Usually, warriors cannot make a Ground Move through any other warrior - called a Move Through - whether they are friend or enemy. Thus, it is almost always the case that no part of any Moving warrior's base can pass through any enemy warrior's base during a Ground Move under any circumstances. (Italicized parts feel contradictory)

However, the lands of darkness are populated by many huge monstrosities , mighty beasts or grim giants of old that pay little heed to the tiny, weak creatures scattered around them on the battlefield. Such warriors can ignore anything smaller than them and Move Through friends and enemies alike to get to grips with a powerful enemy. This does have consequences for the units underfoot, however! ( This whole paragraph directs me that my situation is not the rare exception to the "almost always the case" main rule )

3-8-5-1 MOVING THROUGH UNITS Warriors performing a Ground Move may voluntarily Move Through intervening units ... as long as those Moving Through warriors are at least double the mass of every warrior in their path. (That ain't me on two italicized counts, so I skipped this step)

Some units will involuntarily ... Move Through intervening units ... and its warriors can be of any mass to do so. ( on second reading I realized this DOES apply to me after all )

Correct so far...

3-8-5-2-2 IMPACT STRIKES If the Moving Through unit is a Swift unit (true in this case?) and has the ability to perform impact strikes during an Attack action, such as those provided during the 'bulk charger' ability (true), any Moved Through unit - friend of enemy - will suffer at least some of those impact strikes...

Each Moving Through warrior that passes through the Moved Through unit must perform an Attack action with all of its combat weapons that can perform impact strikes (excepting impact strikes from borne weapons), as well as any bulk impact strikes, upon the Moved Through unit.

So I bolded that last sentence because it is the rule I see, but I could easily be struggling to understand impact strikes. From what I see here, I CAN use Claws and Trample; I CAN'T use the borne Spear or the Bulk Charger ability itself against a higher mass target. So I thought I'd be making difficult strike tests due to blind panic or something.

Okay, claws and trample are not an impact strike weapon, because they do not have the ‘impact strike’ rule. Only your bulk charge (from the ‘bulk charger’ ability) in this instance will count as impact strikes. An example of the impact strike rule on other weapons are chariot scythes, horns etc.

Too bad I can't nab a plane ticket to Nottingham right now; I am jonesing to see some real games!

Man, I wish I could afford to grab a plane ticket to get to give everybody a demo game!

We're only playing a 1,000 silver battle and it's bananas XD - Anyway, thanks for you patience as there's a couple things that have me going "arsed if I know!" and I'm pretty sure they stem from preconceptions from 1st Edition or something.

Cheers, Art

Mate no worries, you're welcome - just ask, and I shall always endeavour to answer!

Cheers
Rob

[Kragnorak]

Okay, claws and trample are not an impact strike weapon, because they do not have the ‘impact strike’ rule. Only your bulk charge (from the ‘bulk charger’ ability) in this instance will count as impact strikes. An example of the impact strike rule on other weapons are chariot scythes, horns etc.

Okay, so in this case Crabspear scuttles over the Kadamastar with zero attacks because one can't Bulk Charge vs greater mass, then Krokod gets Reaction Attack (picking a single attack type at +2 due to Weary) then assuming Crabspear has survived, he Bulk Charges into remnants of a Savrar unit. They will take a panic test, and if they don't flee, they will get a Reaction attack as well and then get Displaced.

I know Displacement is a Master rule, but we may as well do it at this point! I'm thinking that Panicking Crabby is going to have a Difficult strike even if the modifier is not spelled out, at least on the grounds that they are unsighted until he stumbles into them. After they get their Reaction attack, what happens next battle hour if they still live? Are they involuntarily engaged or will panickng unit continue to flee if a test is failed?

Should there be a strike modifier for a unit with Panic?

- Art

[Kragnorak]

Man, I wish I could afford to grab a plane ticket to get to give everybody a demo game!

One day we're gonna have to make it out there!