Flyers and how to stop them.

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Icchan
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Flyers and how to stop them.

Postby Icchan » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:22 am

It's entirely possible we've been playing flyers (specifically soarers) completely wrong and this whole point is moot, in which case I'd be glad to find out if I'm wrong.
So far in our games, a single soarer has almost completely dominated the outcome of the game, in our last game a gunnhrafn landed on the back of a unit of wihtbogas and wiped them out completely with one sword swing. I was a bit lucky with my damage roll, but still even without the luck, the damage done would have been considerable. Can soarers truly land on any point (as long as it's forest or something like that) and then charge from that point to an enemy unit? Since soaring units can be under flank orders from deployment, they're always the last units to activate so leaving anything "in reserve" to watch out for them is impractical. For every unit that needs protection you'd need another dedicated protector, while the soarer simply can wait for an opening to strike. Sure, can't circle twice in a row, but if you make dive attacks you can keep circling (I think).

Any thoughts on what we're possibly doing wrong? What are your tried and true methods of countering soarers if your faction doesn't have access to soarers yourself?

And I don't know if it's relevan or not, but I'm the one using the soarers, and even to me they seem a wee bit too effective for their cost.
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Rob Lane
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Re: Flyers and how to stop them.

Postby Rob Lane » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:01 am

Icchan wrote:It's entirely possible we've been playing flyers (specifically soarers) completely wrong and this whole point is moot, in which case I'd be glad to find out if I'm wrong.
So far in our games, a single soarer has almost completely dominated the outcome of the game, in our last game a gunnhrafn landed on the back of a unit of wihtbogas and wiped them out completely with one sword swing. I was a bit lucky with my damage roll, but still even without the luck, the damage done would have been considerable.


That does sound lucky - although in my experience Gunnhrafn are usually one-hit wonders... they kill something, then die!

Icchan wrote: Can soarers truly land on any point (as long as it's forest or something like that) and then charge from that point to an enemy unit? Since soaring units can be under flank orders from deployment, they're always the last units to activate so leaving anything "in reserve" to watch out for them is impractical. For every unit that needs protection you'd need another dedicated protector, while the soarer simply can wait for an opening to strike. Sure, can't circle twice in a row, but if you make dive attacks you can keep circling (I think).


You mean not forest I guess, but they can Land on any point according to the restrictions and perform a Charge Attack action, yes, as long as they're engaged where they've Landed. They can't Land somewhere and then Charge - I think you may be confusing a Charge action with a Charge Attack action; the former is the engagement, the latter is the attack. The Dive and Land action is the engagement, and they can perform a Charge Attack action once they've Landed - as long as they're engaged.

Note, however, that the Dive Land Engagement action counts as an indirect engagement - even though the flyer can perform a Charge Attack action - which means the victim unit's Engagement reaction is totally voluntary and so can run off to leave the flyer sitting in his underpants. Undead, please note, can't Flee, so that's more because of the host used than anything else. This is a mechanic that was introduced early on because Soarers were pinning units too easily - this way the engaged unit can see the flyer coming and run away, which is often effective.

Icchan wrote:Any thoughts on what we're possibly doing wrong? What are your tried and true methods of countering soarers if your faction doesn't have access to soarers yourself?

And I don't know if it's relevan or not, but I'm the one using the soarers, and even to me they seem a wee bit too effective for their cost.


I think this is more about tactics than rules if I'm honest...

In my experience, Gunnhrafn especially but most Soarers are quite vulnerable and die very easily once they've shot their bolt (Landed and Attacked). Yes, they may kill something, but they generally die immediately afterwards; and remember, they're usually last in the Battle Sequence so in the next battle hour they may well get their comeuppance immediately. That's what usually happens.

Again, as I said above, consider Fleeing if a unit you want to keep away from the soarer is being Dived.

Hope that all makes sense.

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Rob
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Icchan
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Re: Flyers and how to stop them.

Postby Icchan » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:31 am

Ah, okay so that's something that we've been playing wrong, but in our instance wouldn't have made a difference. The wihtbogas had already fired that turn and as a result were all facing their target, leaving their rear flank completely blind. Ok, so if dive is indirect engagement, do they still get the charge strike bonus and also the swift charge penalty for the opponent's parry?
Also, wasn't aware that flee is a valid engagement reaction, I thought that was Withdraw? Also isn't Withdraw a master rule? We've been playing up to journeyman rules so far. Though I do feel that some master rules really should be journeyman…

I do agree that the gunnhrafns and to some extent even the grithirs are quite glass cannons, but once they've landed flankers no longer have to activate last.

Yes, I meant "as long as it's NOT a forest", I did a typo.

Anyway, I appreciate the input! I now know several thing I did not before! :D
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Re: Flyers and how to stop them.

Postby Rob Lane » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:27 pm

Icchan wrote:Ah, okay so that's something that we've been playing wrong, but in our instance wouldn't have made a difference. The wihtbogas had already fired that turn and as a result were all facing their target, leaving their rear flank completely blind. Ok, so if dive is indirect engagement, do they still get the charge strike bonus and also the swift charge penalty for the opponent's parry?


Yes: it's a bit of a mangle, but they count as Charging so can do a Charge Attack action with all the attendant bonuses, but the Dived upon unit always gets to see them so can turn to face.

Icchan wrote:Also, wasn't aware that flee is a valid engagement reaction, I thought that was Withdraw? Also isn't Withdraw a master rule? We've been playing up to journeyman rules so far. Though I do feel that some master rules really should be journeyman…


Fleeing is a perfectly normal engagement reaction, it's not a master rule - Withdraw is though. Withdrawing is basically running away in an orderly fashion, Fleeing is running away in a panic.

Icchan wrote:I do agree that the gunnhrafns and to some extent even the grithirs are quite glass cannons, but once they've landed flankers no longer have to activate last.

Yes, I meant "as long as it's NOT a forest", I did a typo.

Anyway, I appreciate the input! I now know several thing I did not before! :D


I would suggest you read the engagement reaction rules thoroughly again - you may well find a way to help there...

Cheers
Rob
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Icchan
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Re: Flyers and how to stop them.

Postby Icchan » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:13 pm

Allright, back from another, went a bit differently this time, heheh…
From what I gathered from gleaning the rules, since flyers essentially have line of sight to everything on the ground and vice versa, landing a circler behind the back of an enemy unit wouldn't really work since they can almost always hold voluntarily and turn to face. But a question arose, does the lander count as being in the front arc of the enemy ground unit, can the lander even land in the back of the enemy ground unit?
Per engagement rules you have to fill the front arc first if you are in the front arc, otherwise you can go anywhere you like if you're an indirect engaging unit, but circlers aren't technically on either arc, as they aren't even on the battlefield...

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